Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Aradune_sl said:

That seems to be the consensus -- don't do a dungeon finding system.... Unless we do it JUST for the first few tutorial levels. Helping new players find friends right away would probably be good, but as soon as they reach the level where the tutorial and hand holding ends, bye bye dungeon finder and other similar functionality. The more I think about this solution, the more I like it.

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I have to disagree on this. I think that you would cause more customer dissatisfaction by having this tool available then taking it away. A tutorial exists to introduce players to the gameworld and the mechanics of the game. It is also where you need to set expectations for your game that way a player can decide whether this is a game they want to spend their money on.

So basically you are presenting a product with X features to a customer, then after they buy it they find that you have removed one or more of those features. Many customers will feel cheated at this point. In their eyes you have pulled a bait and switch, and you can guarantee they will go tell all their friends how bad they think you suck.

Personally I feel like the dungeon finder is a lazy way out for developers. It automates the group finding process so that it involves absolutely no social interaction, your group leader is effectively a matching algorithm. If you want to develop a game based around social interaction your tools should promote and in some cases force players to interact and communicate.

Krisrath_sl said:

I have to disagree on this. I think that you would cause more customer dissatisfaction by having this tool available then taking it away. A tutorial exists to introduce players to the gameworld and the mechanics of the game. It is also where you need to set expectations for your game that way a player can decide whether this is a game they want to spend their money on.

So basically you are presenting a product with X features to a customer, then after they buy it they find that you have removed one or more of those features. Many customers will feel cheated at this point. In their eyes you have pulled a bait and switch, and you can guarantee they will go tell all their friends how bad they think you suck.

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Also were not the same players who didnt know what the fuck was going on in the EQ days. People are far more understanding and open to complex gameplay than they were in EQ or WoW early days.

mkopec_sl said:

Interdependence. These porting classes also rely on the tank and healer to level up with.

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Good point. I totally remember porting classes suddenly wanting to rely on a tank and healer after they'd soloed as far as they could and realized the only way they could get epic loots was to join a group. They were also often the ones saying they should be allowed to roll on everything and 'need' that plate BP to sell for cash because they have to buy spells, duh. And of course when a spell drops, they'd be damned if anyone else was allowed to roll on it to sell to buy a fucking BP.

In short, I agree, but don't think it's that simple.

mkopec_sl said:

Of course its not that simple. But lets not forget that this was when mmos were in their infancy. A lot has been learned about balance since then.

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Too many games over 'balanced' of course. Doesn't mean we need to start from scratch when things were legitimately not balanced for shit. That's the tough thing for Brad: trying to find that balance in all these mechanics when your starting point is going to have to represent a compromise that starts out fairly balanced. Can't just go classic EQ and start adding shit over the years. Have to look at what other games have added, and determine where they went too far. Tough, though, especially in a crowd-funded project where every put in a few bucks to then be entitled to a 'the game isn't for you, so fuck off' attitude anytime someone else doesn't want the exact same feature.

Convo_sl said:

Huh? Did you play a wizard or Druid? Any idea how many people I've met from giving teleports to? If I wasn't already in zone offering to do it for $$ a lot of people would just ask me. The conversation would basically end in the person saying they put me on friends list. Sometimes I could help them out down the line and other times I was busy.. You're making this out to be much worse than it was.

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They were just using you for your ports and paying you after. They weren't really your friends. You were a portstitute, my friend. ;/

It's not your fault, Convo. Convo, it's not your fault. Really, son, it's not your fault.


I generally agree, though. Finding someone to port should be preferred, but I don't think it can be like it used to be where at times it was effectively the only way. Sure, you could run to Seb, but good fucking luck having a group wait for you. I think the world needs to be designed smarter, so porting classes are preferred, but not as required, whether that requirement was literal or just

Merlin_sl said:

I always wanted track. I think its BS I never was able to get track on my wizzy. So I should be able to track....ohh and SOW to. A couple heals spells would be nice. Ohh and I want to wear plate armor to. Thanks!

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None of those things are linked to the dungeon finder discussion Brad has brought up. TeleportClass becomes dungeon finder functionality in a game with no dungeon finder.

LFG_sl said:

Heh.

Yeah, select classes having easy-access to currency because of an essential button press that anyone would want to use if they cared about time. Totally balanced.

That's what crafting should be for.

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Heh.. you mean like the ranger who sold SoW? Or the chanter who sold KEI?

To be honest.. there were times I was offering teleports and got no takers for a good hour. It wasn't that bad.

You still haven't said tho.. How would you handle travel? Should you be able to zip around the world? A few cities? I mean how long should it take to get anywhere in the world from start to finish?

On a different topic. I've been waiting for the Rogue reveal as that's been my favorite class in D&D/MMO's. So I'm happy to finally see the details about it released!

The Assassin path sounds like a basic type of Rogue that I like.

The Planestalker is... interesting. I like how throwing is mentioned, as in EQ and WoW the throwing ability of Rogues was very neglected. How that or the role of the class branch in general plays out will be something I'll look forward to finding out more about. At the least I'll go Assassin and be happy though!

Also of note, I like the idea of Rogues being able to adjust/re-use traps rather then just disarm them. It shows thought being put into the often neglected Rogue abilities, and gives hope that they won't be things you use once in a blue moon, to little gain.

I see pickpocketing mentioned, which is good, and hopefully it will be done well were it's meaningful but not to whine provoking of players from other classes. But I am curious, and perhaps worried about the lack of mentioning of lock picking.

Convo_sl said:

the ranger who sold SoW?

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Hahahahaha.

Convo_sl said:

You still haven't said tho.. How would you handle travel? Should you be able to zip around the world? A few cities? I mean how long should it take to get anywhere in the world from start to finish?

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So you want me to design the travel system in Pantheon blindly.

I'm pointing out the design issues of classwalling ports and why it is a bad idea. Nostalgia is one thing, but wanting the lack of classwalled ports doesn't mean I want the game to be a WoW-clone.

LFG_sl said:

Hahahahaha.

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What am I missing? I was always looking for A SoW when I went quading. Actually would have Melee hold up a port so they could get a SoW before I sent them wherever they needed to go. I would also trade port for SoW..

I agree.. Warriors got the shaft and I hope if this type of interdependence system happens again they look to give every class something of value to offer/trade

LFG_sl said:

Hahahahaha.

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I don't like you, but this was pretty funny to me too.

From my perspective, I played mostly with guildies where ports really weren't a problem, KEI wasn't an issue, etc. There was usually someone on, or someone had a buff bot somewhere to log in. As a result of that, though, when I saw people selling buffs or ports, we pretty much put them on the 'do not invite' list for the guild and groups and open raids (which we did quite a bit of). It just seemed tacky to us, so I've never liked the people who defend it as a good practice, much less a common one.

That doesn't mean I want to take class interdependence away from anyone. It should be preferred that in groups, you have a tank, but to group at all it shouldn't require one. It should be preferred that to travel, you have a SoW or port, but all travel should require them. Even if it's just perception, the minute something in a game is seen as required, that usually means there's something wrong with balance.

It's all about variation and options. So arguing a hard-line of yes or no is short sighted on both sides of the argument.

Torrid_sl said:

Dumar, you make it far easier for me to not keep up with this thread, because you keep fighting the arguments for me.

I wholeheartedly agree that the game should be challenging from day 1 hour 1 level 1. EASY GAMES ARE BORING

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The old guard around here has to keep defending real & meaningful gameplay. Sad part is, the defense gets harder and harder because this industry just keeps sinking into the lobby parlor abyss.

Boozecube_sl said:

This is a debatable point though, not everyone is as much as a masochist as you are Dumar.

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Label me a masochist, but it's not loving pain. I want that feeling of investment and attachment again. I want to feel like my character is something substantial, something I put time and energy into shaping. Like anything else, any other endeavor, the more time you must put to something by definition requires your further investment into it.I want my character to be a big investment.Part of this means a very long leveling process (otherwise there is no attachment - I can level a plethora of characters at ease). Another part requires a sense or possibility of loss. In a MMOG context, this means that some play sessions I may make no progress or actually regress, whether that's by losing items, exp, or whatever mechanic.

This central, core mechanic of loss is where every other design decision should grow from: from world design, to class design, to mob difficulty, everything. There should be arisk of lossin doing anything in Pantheon. From this, everything falls into place: respect of the world & the creatures in it, interacting with other players, playing alertly, smartly, etc.

Applying this to travel & LFG: the world is as it is. The more you leave it alone, the more immersive & believable it can be. The more you manipulate the world with god-powers like LFG dialog boxes, Matrix-ish auto-grp managers, port-anywhere PoK books & npcs, non-attackable guards & npcs, and mob mechanics like leashing and extremely linear zone design, the more transparent, superfluous, fake, andunneededthe world becomes. Look at Warcraft, the overworld only exists for the leveling process and dailies. And even now during the leveling process, many just sit in town and re-q the god-powers of the dungeon-finder. Because of their design decisions and aversion to loss or difficulty outside of twitch, the entire world of Azeroth is mostly a not needed place for anything. A channel for LFG I agree with, as it promotes interaction among players:theymake the groups,theydecide, direct, and assemble themselves to wherever they're going, not a manager. The group creation process must be an organic one done by the players, not a synthetic, algorithmic one done by the Architect.

Two-way ports should never be available to every player. With a big, fat period. Velious one-way ports like C. Scar I'm semi-ok with, because it's not as easy to get back. And I am all for modes of travels that are believable, consistent, and take some time, such as boats.

What this boils down to is: do not make the world accommodate me, make me the player have to accommodate to the world. I want to respect it. I want to feel like I'm in it, and I want the process that I must go through to understand it and develop my character in it to be a long one, with risks and possibilities of loss along the way.

EverQuest and Ultima Online made me feel that way, and that's why I donated to this KS.

Convo_sl said:

What am I missing? I was always looking for A SoW when I went quading. Actually would have Melee hold up a port so they could get a SoW before I sent them wherever they needed to go. I would also trade port for SoW..

I agree.. Warriors got the shaft and I hope if this type of interdependence system happens again they look to give every class something of value to offer/trade

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I think it's funny because if a ranger was trying to charge for SoW, or better yet stand around selling it, they'd be seen as an anti-social greedy asshole... at least in my circle of friends at the time. Yet, a druid or wizard was usually already seen as an antisocial greedy asshole, so we accept the notion of them standing around selling ports as normal.

I guess the nice thing about EQ was these extreme mechanics led to extreme prejudices. Just like, if you weren't someone who paid for a coffin and offered a tip to the necro to come out from soloing to summon a corpse, you were an asshole. But, I was often the one that got sent to Neriak to buy coffins on my rogue, getting ports from a druid or wizard, and nobody thought to tip us, and if we asked, we'd be the ones seen as greedy. It was an interesting dynamic, but I don't think needs to be replicated to such a degree.

Hell, I got chewed out once because some OTHER rogue was only pulling corpses for donations. So, I come into the zone, am told rogues are all assholes, pull the fuckers corpse anyways, ask for no tip, because if you asked, you were seen as a greedy asshole. (I never accepted tips either, then again, I'm a weirdo and in most raiding situations would end up being forced to take gear over others... just not my thing I guess).

DarkAkuma_sl said:

I like the idea of Rogues being able to adjust/re-use traps rather then just disarm them.

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Thought that was interesting.

Still, until they verify which of the subclasses is going to be the dual parry-dagger wielding rogue tank, I'm out and pulling my pledge!

popsicledeath_sl said:

I think it's funny because if a ranger was trying to charge for SoW, or better yet stand around selling it, they'd be seen as an anti-social greedy asshole... at least in my circle of friends at the time. Yet, a druid or wizard was usually already seen as an antisocial greedy asshole, so we accept the notion of them standing around selling ports as normal.

I guess the nice thing about EQ was these extreme mechanics led to extreme prejudices. Just like, if you weren't someone who paid for a coffin and offered a tip to the necro to come out from soloing to summon a corpse, you were an asshole. But, I was often the one that got sent to Neriak to buy coffins on my rogue, getting ports from a druid or wizard, and nobody thought to tip us, and if we asked, we'd be the ones seen as greedy. It was an interesting dynamic, but I don't think needs to be replicated to such a degree.

Hell, I got chewed out once because some OTHER rogue was only pulling corpses for donations. So, I come into the zone, am told rogues are all assholes, pull the fuckers corpse anyways, ask for no tip, because if you asked, you were seen as a greedy asshole. (I never accepted tips either, then again, I'm a weirdo and in most raiding situations would end up being forced to take gear over others... just not my thing I guess).

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Maybe your server was just bad. Most of us who did stuff like this just worked on donations or trade. there was never a value to it. I just remember always waiting on a Melee to get SoW before I teleported them. I also remember always looking for a SoW. It's a pretty simple system and personally, I always tipped. For KeI, SoW, etc.