Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Arden

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,647
1,941
Epic purps and locked encounter sizes, boo.
Both of those things are big negs in my mind. The "color-coded" weapons are just unnecessary and annoying. You don't have to color code things to tell me how nice (or crappy) my stuff is. Give me the stats and let me determine rarity and value on my own, thanks.

Locked encounter sizes are worse. I hate games that use hard coded mechanics to tell me how I should be playing the game.

Not that this game is going to ever come out, but it sounds basically like VG 2.0.
 

Vitality

HUSTLE
5,808
30
Green means go, Red means stop. Purple means over the top.

This is a story about Brad McQuaid who sold his soul just to get laid.

The Pantheon rap is full of crap... better not look because it's a trap.

Now here comes Flex with the deets... rippin on this sucka dealin the beats.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Color coding gear is literally the worst thing that's ever happened to MMOs.
I didn't mind WoW's color coding for rarity. The problem was when they nerfed the dps on all weapons because it turned out slow blue weapons with high-dps were better than much faster purple weapons with lower dps because of instant attacks (that is Blizz didn't understand the game they made and then screwed players who did).

Vanguard ended up doing the same thing: nerfing the combat system to protect rarities for (IIRC) almost exactly the same reason.

Color coding just for rarity is mildly useful in a Free Trade (no or very limited BOE/BOP) environment to less experienced players: gives an idea to players who have just killed a mob for the first time an idea of the worthiness of the drop especially if it's something that neither player could use (e.g. a Ranger/Paladin duo takes out a named Witch who drops a non-BOP blue wand).

Color coding to identify set vs. non-set items or to distinguish cash loot from quest loot from crafting loot from general loot is more useful in any environment - results in quicker looting.

Nerfing dps because of the idiot idea that "Any purple should be better than any blue" is retarded.

Point being I don't see no color-coding as a fight worth investing much time or energy. Now getting developers committed to no-post live nerfing because of color coding is a fight worth investing time and energy.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
If you're referring to the Barman Shanker in WoW for rogues it is kind of yes and no. It turned out the people obsessing over Barman completely refused to believe the majority of rogue damage consisted of white damage. So eventually the optimal MC setup turned out to be the highest DPS dagger you could find (generally Corehound) and offhand the +5 dagger skill dagger from the level 55'ish instance they added post-launch. This was also because there weren't reliable damage parsers so people saw bigger yellow numbers and assumed that meant bigger damage numbers overall.

Not to mention Barman also pushed off debuffs and was usually banned from raiding. I actually wouldn't mind seeing debuff limits introduced in Pantheon.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
If you're referring to the Barman Shanker in WoW for rogues it is kind of yes and no. It turned out the people obsessing over Barman completely refused to believe the majority of rogue damage consisted of white damage. So eventually the optimal MC setup turned out to be the highest DPS dagger you could find (generally Corehound) and offhand the +5 dagger skill dagger from the level 55'ish instance they added post-launch. This was also because there weren't reliable damage parsers so people saw bigger yellow numbers and assumed that meant bigger damage numbers overall.

Not to mention Barman also pushed off debuffs and was usually banned from raiding. I actually wouldn't mind seeing debuff limits introduced in Pantheon.
IIRC, Arcanite Reaper was the main item responsible for the huge nerf: in early Vanilla it was better than pretty anything but Thunderfury or one or two Purples in MC: but there were a lot of slow blue weapons. But it's been a while: I'm sure Vanilla Warriors on this forum could explain the original dps nerf more clearly than I can.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I wasn't a DPS warrior during Arcanite's heyday but I thought it was mostly just a PvP item where the slowless lead to burst. I don't think the sustain was an issue. IIRC the only instant arms warriors had was MS. It was also because of Windfury's interaction with 2H weapons giving the free proc attacks. So if you had WF and you walked up to someone and critted MS while proccing WF they'd effectively get one-shot. I think they just fixed WF's interaction with 2H weapons.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
I wasn't a DPS warrior during Arcanite's heyday but I thought it was mostly just a PvP item where the slowless lead to burst. I don't think the sustain was an issue. IIRC the only instant arms warriors had was MS. It was also because of Windfury's interaction with 2H weapons giving the free proc attacks. So if you had WF and you walked up to someone and critted MS while proccing WF they'd effectively get one-shot. I think they just fixed WF's interaction with 2H weapons.
I was referencing this nerf - I think WF was an additional problem.

Patch 1.8.0 - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Instant Attacks
The mechanics of most instant melee attacks have been modified to improve item balance. Previously, instant melee attacks did damage based on the damage range of the weapon, plus a bonus for the player's attack power. This bonus was then multiplied by the speed of the weapon. As a result, slow weapons did more damage than was intended, and fast weapons were considered inferior by most players. We have changed the way the attack power bonus is calculated for instant attacks. This change does NOT affect attack power calculations for normal melee attacks. Instead of multiplying by the speed of the weapon, the attack power bonus is now multiplied by a fixed number pulled from the following table: ? Two-handed weapons: 3.3
? Daggers: 1.7
? All other one-handed weapons: 2.4
As a direct result of this, many weapons have shifted position in their relative power. In particular, many Epic (purple) quality items are now more powerful than slower Superior (blue) weapons. This change was not made to reduce the power of instant attacks, but to correct the relative imbalance of weapon itemization. At a given level requirement, epic quality weapons should always be more powerful than superior quality weapons. Please also note that all normal weapon swings will be completely unaffected by this change. The following abilities are affected by the design change: Sinister Strike, Ambush, Backstab, Whirlwind, Mortal Strike, and Overpower.
As I said, I believe Vanguard ended up doing a very similar nerf for possibly similar reasons (lower level color slow attack/high dps weapons were doing more damage than higher level color fast attack/moderate dps weapons).

This nerf ranks as one of the worst ever as it just penalized players who understood the game and had invested a lot in getting slower blue items: in particular the Arcanite Reaper.
 

Sevens

Log Wizard
4,990
15,208
I was referencing this nerf - I think WF was an additional problem.

Patch 1.8.0 - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft



As I said, I believe Vanguard ended up doing a very similar nerf for possibly similar reasons (lower level color slow attack/high dps weapons were doing more damage than higher level color fast attack/moderate dps weapons).

This nerf ranks as one of the worst ever as it just penalized players who understood the game and had invested a lot in getting slower blue items: in particular the Arcanite Reaper.
Well Joppa posted saying that the color system probally wont be in game..so yay!
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I was referencing this nerf - I think WF was an additional problem.

Patch 1.8.0 - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft



As I said, I believe Vanguard ended up doing a very similar nerf for possibly similar reasons (lower level color slow attack/high dps weapons were doing more damage than higher level color fast attack/moderate dps weapons).

This nerf ranks as one of the worst ever as it just penalized players who understood the game and had invested a lot in getting slower blue items: in particular the Arcanite Reaper.
You're really overstating the people who understood the game. Most people just knew the weapon was broken in PvP and crafted it to jump on the imbalance train. If you're going to complain about a company fixing issues in their game post-launch I have no fucking clue what you expect.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
You're really overstating the people who understood the game. Most people just knew the weapon was broken in PvP and crafted it to jump on the imbalance train. If you're going to complain about a company fixing issues in their game post-launch I have no fucking clue what you expect.
Lol. The issue was that Blizzard fucked up and didn't really understand how combat worked at release. Their fix screwed over people who did understand the game. I expect companies to live up to their mistakes and not screw players over for the sake of the shibboleth of "balance." Balance is never possible unless you make everyone's character absolutely equal to everybody else's character.

As an example of what Blizzard could have done: it could gone through with the nerf, made the AR a purple and made it a very rare recipe drop or wtf. That would have fixed their fuckup, normalized damage and not screwed over players who had invested in ARs.

Edit: Relatedly. If your game is primarily PvE (and Vanilla WoW certainly qualifies) you do not balance for PvP. If some combination of PvE weapon plus PvE ability creates an imbalance in PvP: that's the way it goes, you don't not alter the primary PvE environment.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I actually was on the train of "Don't balance PvP in this game" when WoW did the normalization. But I also understood that if they didn't do something to make faster weapons compete then they'll be painting themselves into a corner where all weapons have to have the exact same speed. Which it seems on WoW WoD that is pretty much what they ended up having to do. If a mace is at 2.6 speed and a sword is 2.2 and DPS is equal there will never be a reason NOT to MH a mace. And that was my problem. And if they made swords and maces equal in speed then why even have different weapons? Possibly the issue was fundamental to instant-attack but I feel having all the skills revolve around on-attack would make the combat system very, very slow.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
Both of those things are big negs in my mind. The "color-coded" weapons are just unnecessary and annoying. You don't have to color code things to tell me how nice (or crappy) my stuff is. Give me the stats and let me determine rarity and value on my own, thanks.

Locked encounter sizes are worse. I hate games that use hard coded mechanics to tell me how I should be playing the game.

Not that this game is going to ever come out, but it sounds basically like VG 2.0.
I hate locked encounters, too. I loved doing 70+ person raids in EQ. Everyone in the guild could go on the raid together and not have to sit on the sidelines, hoping someone logged off. Still amazes me that shit they got right over 15 years ago they haven't been able to get right since..
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
I And that was my problem. And if they made swords and maces equal in speed then why even have different weapons? .
I don't remember how it worked in WoW but logically developers should stop worrying about dps and speed so much and design around the types of damages these weapons deliver: slashing versus crushing in the case of a sword and a mace. That combined with a good weapon specialization skill system can make weapon selection matter more.

For example Rapiers should have piercing damage, fast speed, low dps but high possibility for crits (e.g. you manage to pierce through a gap in the armor).

I will say the one thing I sorta liked about EQN was the idea that different weapons would have different attacks - I think that's a better model than giving a warrior ten generic attacks (Rend Armor, Superior Stabbing Instant Attack or WTF) and weapons are just different graphics that don't really mean much beyond the dps/speed stats.
 

Spynx_sl

shitlord
232
0
It's 1:03 AM, I'm sitting here drinking coffee and it just dawned on me (again) that Panetheon has more content shown/created than EQN and is the only big PVE mmo in the works for probably 5+ years to come. Fuck
 
54
0
It's 1:03 AM, I'm sitting here drinking coffee and it just dawned on me (again) that Panetheon has more content shown/created than EQN and is the only big PVE mmo in the works for probably 5+ years to come. Fuck
Very much so, but for the love of God, if they don't add bards in for launch, I will be even more pissed.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I don't remember how it worked in WoW but logically developers should stop worrying about dps and speed so much and design around the types of damages these weapons deliver: slashing versus crushing in the case of a sword and a mace. That combined with a good weapon specialization skill system can make weapon selection matter more.

For example Rapiers should have piercing damage, fast speed, low dps but high possibility for crits (e.g. you manage to pierce through a gap in the armor).

I will say the one thing I sorta liked about EQN was the idea that different weapons would have different attacks - I think that's a better model than giving a warrior ten generic attacks (Rend Armor, Superior Stabbing Instant Attack or WTF) and weapons are just different graphics that don't really mean much beyond the dps/speed stats.
I have a few problems with that method.

First there will always be a "best" weapon. So even if enemies don't have an armor type vulernable to pierce/crush/slash spreadsheets and math will be ran and eventually they'd figure out the best weapon generically. Then if you DO give enemies armor types now you have to keep a bunch of weapons in your bag and switch them out simply because this boss is susceptible to crushing damage. It seems tedious.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
I have a few problems with that method.

First there will always be a "best" weapon. So even if enemies don't have an armor type vulernable to pierce/crush/slash spreadsheets and math will be ran and eventually they'd figure out the best weapon generically. Then if you DO give enemies armor types now you have to keep a bunch of weapons in your bag and switch them out simply because this boss is susceptible to crushing damage. It seems tedious.
That doesn't bother me: keeps players interested in weapon drops even if they already have a very good primary weapon. In one sense it's analogous to granting specific resistances to bosses (Fire Elemental Boss is fully resistant to fire) and forcing magic-using types to use different spells (particularly if spells have to be found or researched, so Magc-types have to decide which spells to search for/research).

Works even better if you've got an actual weight system in the game so fighter types need to make strategic decisions as to which weapons to bring on an adventure and/or specialize with: mixed underwater/overland: trident and Sword. A lot of skeletons: bring the ol' Mace.

At the end of the day you want to force players to make decisions about gear slots (and spell/ability slots) its one reason why EQ's original minimalish hotbar >> the 5,000 buttons you could get in VG.
 

Mario Speedwagon

Gold Recognition
<Prior Amod>
18,801
67,743
I will admit that my jimmies get a little rustled whenever I play a game where piercing weapons are just as effective against skeletons as blunt weapons.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,325
43,163
Soybro- can you check for mod approval on Joppa. He signed up a while ago.
I've been sick as fuck the last couple days. Did someone get him? I don't see a Joppa pending approval. If he registered under another name, what is it?