Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Big_w_powah · Jun 8, 2017

Well, an "all instrument" weapon would've worked if the modifier was less than that of raid instruments.

Also, speaking in Kunark;
Monk was 100% gamechanging. Clicky haste+ATK was apeshit awesome; Not to mention the massive change in fist ratio
Rogue was awesome because it was the highest damage piercer in the game that was rogue useable. BS's got bigger
Cleric, Bard were as you said, 100% required.
Warrior was pretty fucking gamechanging too, first pure +aggro proc they had, and only one in Kunark.
Ranger slow proc was pretty goddamn useful in utility
Shaman, Druid, Necro, Shaman were all stat sticks
Enc was goddamn useful. Not gamechanging or class defining, but useful.
SK/PAL were VERY nice weapons, with great damage and the unique ability to act as a shield for bash when 2handing. Not gamechanging, not even that utilitarian, but a bit more than stat sticks.

I would argue that in Kunark, Monk/Rogue/Cleric/Bard/WAR were all 100% required for those classes.

Fyff · Jun 8, 2017

Big_w_powah said:
It could just be a single, very long multi-stepped quest that rewards pieces along the way, culminating in your awesome "ultimate epic" item

Like the Final Fantasy artifact weapons?

yerm · Jun 8, 2017

EQ added much better chase items to future expansions. The coldain ring for instance involved a combination of solo, group, and raid continent with an epic finish. There were side rewards for the 2 raids. The item was useful, and persistently useful, but not mandatory.

BIC was also very good, despite the expansion release being fumbled. As an aug it was by design never op but insanely long-term valuable. It involved many different aspects, tons of work, and was awesome about having pacing and difficulty to acquire without actual firm bottlenecks.

Epics were cool in concept but bad in most cases in implementation. Having them be class defining was an awful choice. Being a weapon is also bad; it fucks with weapon upgrade progression. 2.0s were a repeat bad proving this.

mkopec · Jun 8, 2017

The epic quests should of been something that starts at lv 1 and ends at lv50 or 60 and all solo, maybe some group action for major bosses, challenging of course. Sort of like a life quest that carries with you your entire leveling process. No everyone is into the entire raid thing, especially in a group focused game.

BilboFaggins · Jun 8, 2017

TJT said:
EQ Epics worked well because they were primarily high utility items for key classes. Or just stat sticks for other and the quests were cool. The only ones that were totally and utterly required for their class in a lot of ways were Bard and Cleric. Bard is probably moreso just because SS replaced all instruments. Which also made instruments pointless to design so I think it was a pretty bad item to create overall.

The best way to make epic class defining items in an MMO is to just have them be extremely useful in utility. Not something that redefines the class entirely.

I never liked the fact that bards stopped using instruments. I always thought the instruments were cool.

Big_w_powah · Jun 9, 2017

BilboFaggins said:
I never liked the fact that bards stopped using instruments. I always thought the instruments were cool.

Well, the bard epic was a 1.8 modifier when 2.2 was the max.

That was the problem.

If it had been a 1.2 or 1.4, or some shit. Basically "you can play instrument only songs, and the others at a DECENT strength while you have your X instrument in offhand for big strong songs of that type..

THAT'd of been badass.

Kuro · Jun 9, 2017

I mean, it was probably patterned after Songblades in Dungeons and Dragons, not an actual novel idea they thought through and considered the ramifications of. Songblades pretty much replaced instruments in combat there, too.

Big_w_powah · Jun 9, 2017

Considering they got "songblade of the eternal" in time, that did what the epic did, I'm sure.

Had they been smart, bards wouldn't of been some bladedancer cunts, but instead they'd of designed "knight 1h" weapons from the begining (see sk/pal 1h weapons) and had bards on them

Bards never would have gotten DW

Offhand slot would've been reserved for an instrument

Epic would've been a cooler effect item.

TJT · Jun 9, 2017

As like a case study EQ itself is just fascinating in terms of game design. Supplant a Text based DIKUMUD right into 3 dimensions with spatial exploitation and see what the fuck happens.

Classic Itemization (now that I am playing Agnarr) just SCREAMS Mud. Melee weapons with effects intended to be used while meleeing for classes that would never melee shit due to the effectiveness of spells (Nagafen Druid Staff). Just throwing in DND elements like Songblades because DND has them and they're cool. But not really thinking on how much they design you right into a corner in terms of itemization is interesting too.

As the expansions came out items made more and more sense in the MMO context. But classic EQ is just really interesting and quirky.

DickTrickle · Jun 9, 2017

Instruments still weren't worthless as long as they had a higher mod. Did no other bards swap instruments in when the song was almost completed? I mean, it's a pain to do that all the time, but in spots where things are tough or close, I would always swap.

ZyyzYzzy · Jun 9, 2017

TJT said:
As like a case study EQ itself is just fascinating in terms of game design. Supplant a Text based DIKUMUD right into 3 dimensions with spatial exploitation and see what the fuck happens.

Classic Itemization (now that I am playing Agnarr) just SCREAMS Mud. Melee weapons with effects intended to be used while meleeing for classes that would never melee shit due to the effectiveness of spells (Nagafen Druid Staff). Just throwing in DND elements like Songblades because DND has them and they're cool. But not really thinking on how much they design you right into a corner in terms of itemization is interesting too.

As the expansions came out items made more and more sense in the MMO context. But classic EQ is just really interesting and quirky.

I hate the complete homogenization of items nowadays and the ilvl system of calculated stat values.

TJT · Jun 9, 2017

ZyyzYzzy said:
I hate the complete homogenization of items nowadays and the ilvl system of calculated stat values.

Yeah I hope Pantheon can remember that. While people like us love to min/max sure. You don't need to design all items around the concept of min/maxing. Make the players that want to squeeze the most out of their stats figure out their shit.

Vinjin · Jun 9, 2017

Partly why their mantra of situational use items has me intrigued. There is a lot of potential there to design items in a way that makes sense While forcing the player to make choices.

I'm still expecting something fairly rudimentary from them in this area but like I said, the potential is there.

Jarek · Jun 10, 2017

Haven't checked this thread in a while, see we're still talking more about EQ than Pantheon, but that's right up my alley.

One of the things I noticed about EQ as I began to level my first character up into the 20's, and met a broader range of other players from different starting areas, was that EQ had the most unique itemization of any RPG I'd played over my 30 years before that. Stein of Moggok for example, some madman wizard just wandering around with a huge beer stein. Weird.

Also, everything had a backstory, it wasn't ever just Boots of Intelligence +9, they were the Golden Effreti Boots and you had to either go kill the Efreeti or buy them from someone who had killed him themselves! Instead of telling you a story, EQ provided you with opportunities to tell your own stories, but all with a common thread of the world's background and lore. Items were not unique, but they also were not generic. Items had origins and histories that were memorable. Items weren't disposable either, that made them more permanent, more substantial, more real.

That aspect, mixing the gameworld's lore so tightly with itemization, created these common memories and shared experiences among the players, but each with their own unique point of view. I didn't get my GEBs in Quest 3, Chapter 2... I got them in a latenight trio group barely holding the camp. Maybe you went with a guild group, or got them as a trade for another rare item you won in a roll, or maybe a guildmate gave you their old GEBs when they got raid boots, etc. Anyway, yeah, that's why we're all still talking about this shit. It's memorable.

TJT · Jun 10, 2017

Jarek said:
Haven't checked this thread in a while, see we're still talking more about EQ than Pantheon, but that's right up my alley.

One of the things I noticed about EQ as I began to level my first character up into the 20's, and met a broader range of other players from different starting areas, was that EQ had the most unique itemization of any RPG I'd played over my 30 years before that. Stein of Moggok for example, some madman wizard just wandering around with a huge beer stein. Weird.

Also, everything had a backstory, it wasn't ever just Boots of Intelligence +9, they were the Golden Effreti Boots and you had to either go kill the Efreeti or buy them from someone who had killed him themselves! Instead of telling you a story, EQ provided you with opportunities to tell your own stories, but all with a common thread of the world's background and lore. Items were not unique, but they also were not generic. Items had origins and histories that were memorable. Items weren't disposable either, that made them more permanent, more substantial, more real.

That aspect, mixing the gameworld's lore so tightly with itemization, created these common memories and shared experiences among the players, but each with their own unique point of view. I didn't get my GEBs in Quest 3, Chapter 2... I got them in a latenight trio group barely holding the camp. Maybe you went with a guild group, or got them as a trade for another rare item you won in a roll, or maybe a guildmate gave you their old GEBs when they got raid boots, etc. Anyway, yeah, that's why we're all still talking about this shit. It's memorable.

Totally. Now I question whether any of that was intentional considering most of the other good features of the game were accidents... haha.

Daidraco · Jun 10, 2017

You could say that, but if I go back about two expansions in WoW - I can barely remember any of the equipment names. I can remember the bosses easy, but other than the look of the gear.. Ive forgotten all about it. I know for a fact that I kept some of those pieces through multiple content patches too. So they werent insignificant. Your theory is good, but it just falls short.

I believe it had more to do with the fact that EverQuest in its first inception didnt flood you with items. In EQ, you could get 500 Fine Steel Weapons which was just heavy vendor trash. Not 500 flavors of greens and blue weapons which were vendor trash. I legitimately think I went from something like A rusty sword, to a Fine Steel Sword, A gnoll hide whip, Executioners Axe, then Ykesha's. Out of 50 levels, I only swapped weapons a handful of times. The next two expansion, Kunark and Velious, had a similar theme.

I get that players want to feel like theyve accomplished something if they only have 15 minutes to play. But that should be relegated to exploring, crafting, questing and similar. You want something special in this mundane world? Put the time into it.

TJT · Jun 10, 2017

Daidraco said:
You could say that, but if I go back about two expansions in WoW - I can barely remember any of the equipment names. I can remember the bosses easy, but other than the look of the gear.. Ive forgotten all about it. I know for a fact that I kept some of those pieces through multiple content patches too. So they werent insignificant. Your theory is good, but it just falls short.

I believe it had more to do with the fact that EverQuest in its first inception didnt flood you with items. In EQ, you could get 500 Fine Steel Weapons which was just heavy vendor trash. Not 500 flavors of greens and blue weapons which were vendor trash. I legitimately think I went from something like A rusty sword, to a Fine Steel Sword, A gnoll hide whip, Executioners Axe, then Ykesha's. Out of 50 levels, I only swapped weapons a handful of times. The next two expansion, Kunark and Velious, had a similar theme.

I get that players want to feel like theyve accomplished something if they only have 15 minutes to play. But that should be relegated to exploring, crafting, questing and similar. You want something special in this mundane world? Put the time into it.

AA's are probably the best incremental carrot to reward players for "limited" playtime ever designed for an MMO. Oh shit I can't play much tonight. But even solo or with one other guy I can play for an hour or 45 minutes and at least get an AA. Designing an extremely detailed AA system full of useful utility stuff, useful fluff stuff, fun things, cool things, quirky things, legitimate stat and ability increases and letting players go through it as they will is a huge and efficient system to keep people playing.

Designing them around 30 mins per AA for the modern era is a pretty good idea. Still annoys me that a lot of MMOs never bothered with an AA system.

But I totally agree, game needs to encourage more than just the item treadmill. I should be able to login. Craft some stuff, get some skill ups, gather some stuff or something and that would be rewarding. Get to a far off location... anything.

Vinjin · Jun 10, 2017

Hell, it will be good to log into an MMO and actually have reasons just to chat with people again.

Dullahan · Jun 11, 2017

mkopec said:
The epic quests should of been something that starts at lv 1 and ends at lv50 or 60 and all solo, maybe some group action for major bosses, challenging of course. Sort of like a life quest that carries with you your entire leveling process. No everyone is into the entire raid thing, especially in a group focused game.

An EQ emu called Shards of Dalaya had something like this, and it's been one of the more memorable things I've encountered in an mmorpg. Not only was it something you could do throughout the leveling process, there were also multiple paths to achieve it. Everything in the game had classic alignment system and it was woven into the "main quest". Obviously it was still just a free shard so the options were limited, but in an mmo with a solid writing and development team, that kind of thing could go a long way to eliminating the linear and generic feel of character advancement.

Elidroth · Jun 12, 2017

Gear inflation was a big problem in EQ. If we'd kept with the idea that magical bonuses were very rare and small, then it might have been manageable. Also, the unified focus system for casters took away any perception of choice. There was 1 equipment build that gave you the best output, and 1 only. As expansions are released, the only way to sell them to people was the mudflate like mad so people HAD to buy the new expansion to even play.. Another aspect of MMO publishing that I despise (but admittedly played my part in creating).

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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