Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Merlin_sl said:

Yes, absolutely it did. I would argue however that the "holy trinity" also remains the best way to group. Everyone knew their role and perfected it.While I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, I loved the holy trinity. I can't stand today's "everyone can do everything" classes.No one stands out, no one is unique. Everyone is just kinda flying through content at breakneck speed till they are finished, then they all go they're separate ways. No one talks, no friendships are born, no one needs anyone so their is no reason to shout or ask anyone for help, it just feels so.......cold. I remember spending weeks in KC and it just ran like clockwork. Tank pulls, healer heals, druid snares, wizards nuke at 70%....and in between pulls we would all talk about what we were doing or what raids we were going on that night or what jobs we had.....I had dozens of people on my friends list and would often send tells to fill groups or ask for help. I've been playing EQ2 since the beginning. My current friends list has 6 people in it, and 2 of them are my wife's alts. The very design of today's MMO's actually discourage grouping, talking, or helping others. I mean jesus, they even restrict buffing now so you can't run by that level 18 getting his butt kicked, heal him, buff him and keep running. I can't stand the direction the industry has taken.

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Honestly I don't think it's as unpopular opinion as you think.

Butler and Ponytail may be pushing the everyone can do everything and we fucking hate healers , but I think there's quite a decent amount of mmo players that much prefer defined roles in groups and classes designed as so.

Merlin_sl said:

I mean jesus, they even restrict buffing now so you can't run by that level 18 getting his butt kicked, heal him, buff him and keep running. I can't stand the direction the industry has taken.

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I have a huge gripe with this too. I used love throwing Focus and Regrowth on a lowbie while passing by and watching them be able to solo shit all of a sudden. And I loved it even more when I was on the receiving end. God do I miss being able to godlike a toon with twink gear and buffs.

I really, really like support classes both in concept and playing them (includes healing). The problems happen when one class or another becomes required to do something and forces you to play or not play with apersonsimply because of the class they have. The holy grail is to have both fun and viable support classes, but also not make them mandatory so that you can run a dungeon with your friends if you want to even if you all happen to be DPS classes.

I probably was in theory against the "holy trinity", until I tried GW2. Group oriented PVE without roles like that was pretty chaotic in a stupid way.

What I am in favor of is having class roles while still allowingsomeleeway. I felt EQ had a good balance, in that for the non-raiding game at least, there was a spectrum of viable group makeups that could work, to varying degrees of efficiency. So it was possible to roll without a 'pure' tank class for example, or take two healers, or heavy dps, heavy cc, charm usage, etc. Having 6-man groups and having CC be a legitimate factor probably helped that as well.

Ryan_sl said:

I probably was in theory against the "holy trinity", until I tried GW2. Group oriented PVE without roles like that was pretty chaotic in a stupid way.

What I am in favor of is having class roles while still allowingsomeleeway. I felt EQ had a good balance, in that for the non-raiding game at least, there was a spectrum of viable group makeups that could work, to varying degrees of efficiency. So it was possible to roll without a 'pure' tank class for example, or take two healers, or heavy dps, heavy cc, charm usage, etc. Having 6-man groups and having CC be a legitimate factor probably helped that as well.

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VG did this well.. there were many classes that could tank.

Denaut_sl said:

I really, really like support classes both in concept and playing them (includes healing). The problems happen when one class or another becomes required to do something and forces you to play or not play with apersonsimply because of the class they have. The holy grail is to have both fun and viable support classes, but also not make them mandatory so that you can run a dungeon with your friends if you want to even if you all happen to be DPS classes.

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Or you could.........GASP, send a tell to one of the said classes and ask them to group with you?


Listen, I understand you want to log in and run a dungeon with your friends, who doesn't? But for gods sakes, just befriend people who are playing those classes, and when you need help, ask for it!! Saying, "Well I shouldn't have to be required to do x" is disconcerting. Its exactly this thinking that started the watering down process so everyone could do everything they wanted whenever they wanted and now were left with games that are a shadow of what they used to be.

Merlin_sl said:

Or you could.........GASP, send a tell to one of the said classes and ask them to group with you?


Listen, I understand you want to log in and run a dungeon with your friends, who doesn't? But for gods sakes, just befriend people who are playing those classes, and when you need help, ask for it!! Saying, "Well I shouldn't have to be required to do x" is disconcerting. Its exactly this thinking that started the watering down process so everyone could do everything they wanted whenever they wanted and now were left with games that are a shadow of what they used to be.

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Well said Merlin.

Now if only we can get a developer that actually thinks this way.

+1 to Merlin.

It's fine to have some content for an all dps group.

Doesn't mean all content should be available to everyone.

I'm a "filthy casual" compared to EQ launch days playtime I had.

I don't think it's an issue for me to not get to see or do everything a hardcore player does.

Let me see the bad-ass armor and weapon in town that's something to behold from said player.

Don't hand the shit to me , nor feel inclined to accommodate by letting me steam roll through a dungeon without a healer or tank.

What play time I do have , I'm willing to wait , need the trinity , (actually I enjoy playing a healer at times myself ) and am fine with the journey taking a long time ,and there be actual , ya know , requirements to accomplish X.

My friends and I can find a tank , or god forbid , make new friends in game that arent already part of real life/guild.

What the fuck happened to the massively part of an mmo , not it being a theme park for you and your buddies that happens to have other folks around?

Dahkoht_sl said:

What the fuck happened to the massively part of an mmo

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That is one of the biggest tragedies in this genre. I remember back in 1998 or 1999 when I first heard the term, it was for EQ. The "persistent world" thing was quite a cool feature. I don't think anyone cared that much because it was described as, "a world that continues to live after you log out and go to sleep". I think most people thought, "Yeah ok pretty cool" but if you aren't there to see it... whatever. But the "massive" thing was a big deal. Back then online gaming had a few good years already, people were already playing first person shooters online and had been doing so for some time. There were other games too but FPS's in particular were becoming really popular online, and there were multiple ones. People had seen it and done it.

The big deal about the likes of EQ was this massively idea, not just a match with 16 vs 16 but "thousands" of players together. In reality it was over-stated because you never actually saw thousands of people or even hundreds. They were all split across different zones so 99% of the time it was <100 people, even on raids. But still, it was a great start and a fun game, I don't think anyone complained too much. But that was 19fucking99. It's now 2013 and you would think by now that someone might have developed this idea. I know some games sort of have, EVE and whatnot, but still. In all this time we have still never seen a city with 1000+ people doing stuff, or a massive battleground with 200 people fighting a huge army of attacking undead or whatever.

The "massively" thing died along with the genre's creativity and meaningful and purposeful mud-converting roots.

Dahkoht_sl said:

+1 to Merlin.

It's fine to have some content for an all dps group.

Doesn't mean all content should be available to everyone.

I'm a "filthy casual" compared to EQ launch days playtime I had.

I don't think it's an issue for me to not get to see or do everything a hardcore player does.

Let me see the bad-ass armor and weapon in town that's something to behold from said player.

Don't hand the shit to me , nor feel inclined to accommodate by letting me steam roll through a dungeon without a healer or tank.

What play time I do have , I'm willing to wait , need the trinity , (actually I enjoy playing a healer at times myself ) and am fine with the journey taking a long time ,and there be actual , ya know , requirements to accomplish X.

My friends and I can find a tank , or god forbid , make new friends in game that arent already part of real life/guild.

What the fuck happened to the massively part of an mmo , not it being a theme park for you and your buddies that happens to have other folks around?

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Maybe I'm just getting older but seriously..........

There is nothing wrong with not getting what I want in 10 seconds, or a couple hours of playtime. I am a full time student now and father of many, many children. My days of spending 10 hours grinding or raiding are over. With that said, it doesn't mean I'm not active and willing to work for what I get. My wife and I will log onto EQ2 and spend a few hours a night crafting or working on quests or leveling and we see many raiders with gear that makes my jaw drop. But I never once try to convince myself that the devs should provide a way for me to get that gear playing casually. I used to raid, I know the hours and dedication it takes and I would never insult the current raiders by asking the devs to give me what I haven't earned.
Whats been lost is, its ok to not get the best gear unless youearnit. You have to raid, to have to spend the hours learning the scripts and questing for the right gear etc.. And that goes to grouping to. If I don't have a good, solid group and I am unable to complete say....Kael(EQ2), that is ok. I don't need the devs to make the zones soloable or duoable. You should need a group to complete the tough zones.

I remember when I became a raider in EQ back in 2003. Talk about culture shock! It was unlike anything I had done in my years of playing to that point. It was hard, difficult, long hours, but rewarding as hell! Earning the gear I got was ten times better then having it given to me. Taking down raid mobs because of our hard work, dedication, and commitment made killing the raid mobs mean so much more than it does today. I hope to see this in a future game, but sadly, I doubt I ever will.

Rhok'delar was easy as shit to get. I downed all 4 demons the same night I got the MC drop.

Bruman_sl said:

All comes back around to - EQ was designed more as a world, than as a game. Things like varying difficulty in the same zone, long travel times, etc makes for a great world, not so great a game. Many people just want to see a world again.

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Definitely. Couple this with things that make more sense in a world, to find again a little bit of the mystical immersion (or suspension of disbelief if we want to be picky): no storebought loot, no currency other than coin, no to excessive power creep inside the same period of the game and so on and so forth.
I'd love that for sure.

Tmac47_sl said:

The two are mutually exclusive. They don't actively influence one another like you're insinuating.

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Mutual exclusivity is an explicit relationship. I think you mean something else. Either way, the notion that interdependence breeds interaction seems pretty reasonable to me. What makes you think they aren't related? He does go too far by saying that there is absolutely no interaction as things are, though.

Merlin_sl said:

Or you could.........GASP, send a tell to one of the said classes and ask them to group with you?


Listen, I understand you want to log in and run a dungeon with your friends, who doesn't? But for gods sakes, just befriend people who are playing those classes, and when you need help, ask for it!! Saying, "Well I shouldn't have to be required to do x" is disconcerting. Its exactly this thinking that started the watering down process so everyone could do everything they wanted whenever they wanted and now were left with games that are a shadow of what they used to be.

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You are missing the point entirely. Finding a different person because they have the right class means excluding one of the people you were going to play with in the first place. The point is that a good MMORPG isn't like a single player game where the game components are what matter most, the strength of an MMORPG ispeopleyou play with.

A well designed MMORPG will make it easy to find and meet new people, yes, but will also make it easy for you to play with the people you want to play with when you want to play with them. Requiring a holy trinity impairs that by forcing you to either exclude someone you like and enjoy playing the game with or possibly forcing you to include someone you don't want to play with simply because of the class/combat system.

Ultimately this decreases the enjoyment of the game and doesn't play to the strengths of the genre.

Denaut_sl said:

I really, really like support classes both in concept and playing them (includes healing). The problems happen when one class or another becomes required to do something and forces you to play or not play with apersonsimply because of the class they have. The holy grail is to have both fun and viable support classes, but also not make them mandatory so that you can run a dungeon with your friends if you want to even if you all happen to be DPS classes.

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No, not really. I played MMOs since late 1999 and never felt forced to do anything I didn't want, yet I played mostly healers and sometimes tanks.
What I always wanted was a way for healers to kill stuff when grouping wasn't happening, first helpful contribution to this cause was the summoned hammer for EQ clerics, which was nerfed right away because somebody thought clerics weren't supposed to kill a mob in less than a couple hours probably.
Aside from that I love grouping and dungeoning, healing or tanking, but if cc is important and not mindnumbing I like doing that too (EQ bard for example).

Without trinity you have GW2, a game I love for what it is, but not for grouping into dungeons.