Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Quaid_sl said:

Maybe giant golden ! and ? Is a bit ridiculous, but for me, a faint aura or something indicating notable NPCs would be nice.

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm bore-school, but I like the idea of key local NPCs knowing what's-what and will give the player hints through rumors and gossip. Instead of having to hunt for quests, the local innkeeper or tavern wench probably has a clue as to the latest happenings, so that's always a good place for a player to start asking around if they're into that kind of thing. Of course, after 1 day live, all the quests will be fully spoiled and most of us will just follow the wiki to the NPC coordinates like we did in the golden days.

I always thought the problem with WoW's ! system wasn't that it exists. It was a great idea. The problem was instead of having a select few NPCs trying to get your attention with quests it was every-fucking-npc in the game. It revealed how shit-tastic quest-hubbing was. But the mechanic alone, or the idea an NPC might try to clue the player in, wasn't ever the issue for me.

edit: and questing just needs to make sense. Every local nobody shouldn't be asking every passerby to help them do meanial tasks. If you're a rogue, though, you should know exactly where to hunt for quests: with your rogue guild. Same with clerics and their shrines/churches, etc. It shouldn't be a fucking mystery where people should get the best quests from, I hope.

popsicledeath_sl said:

edit: and questing just needs to make sense. Every local nobody shouldn't be asking every passerby to help them do meanial tasks. If you're a rogue, though, you should know exactly where to hunt for quests: with your rogue guild. Same with clerics and their shrines/churches, etc. It shouldn't be a fucking mystery where people should get the best quests from, I hope.

Click to expand...

I think/hope most of us agree that time would be better spent making meaningful/logical sense quest then countless pointless ones. It sounds like Brad agrees.. I don't need 8000 quest in a game with 10% actually mattering... give me 100 and make everyone of them awesome/matter/logical from beginning to end. Ultimately questing is a bonus in a gaming heavily focused on grouping.

I really feel like by this time we can come up with a more organic solution to advertising quest opportunities than an actual visual cue. The voice-over system from early EQ2 could have been a good system for this kind of thing (it wasnt, it was actually just annoying). Short of actual voice-overs requesting help (budget) maybe make interacting with NPC's an integral and easily accessible part of the game. EQ did this, to a degree. I recall spending a lot of time running around hailing everyone just to see what was going on. Mind you, part of that was ignorance to the genre but I imagine a system could be created to facilitate the same result.

Also to note on the GPS map/radar talks , while I'd be fine with zero mini map and sense heading like old school EQ , a middle ground could be found.

But one thing needs to be 100% out - the ridiculous glowing red dot radar system for aggro mobs , make everyone actually pay attention to the damn world , no mobs should show on any mini map.

Ya, I mean.... Visual queues aren't necessary if the quest system is very carefully implemented. I like the idea of dropped items (ex. Letters, scrolls) leading to specific NPCs, or wanted signs, or world spawn lore books etc etc. NPC behaviour (looking distressed or hanging around certain places appropriate class/lvl PCs will be) is a neat way to indicate their importance too.

I just think on a low budget project like this it may be necessary to manage our expectations a bit.

Also on the grinding vs quests ,I've mentioned before , make some sort of slight bonus to long standing mobs to encourage exploring mixed with grinding. As in if it's in your level range , off in some far off corner that folks haven't gone much/lately and it hasn't been killed in a while double the xps for the mob. Would make traveling around everywhere and simply hunting different mobs encouraged as much as questing along any sort of path or set grinding camps. (note I'm not asking for fast leveling in any way , just seems like a simple system to code in to add a little bonus to the explorer types)

Quaid_sl said:

Oh no, not too complicated. Just like a fog of war style mapping system. You reveal areas of them while you explore a region... Press the M key to bring up your map book or whatever. Then your UI has a compass like TESO showing nearby (under 100 yards) points of interest.

The important part is just no permanent UI GPS mini map. Bothers the fuck out of me.

Click to expand...

I do not mind a mini map, as long as it only shows a very short area around you, but its not needed. Perhaps it only shows your own personal poi,grp members, and a couple major lore spots. Having only this info might stop the living in the mini map issues mentioned below. When it comes to the quote above, Add to that the ability to easily mark my own points of interest and I think you have the perfect mapping system for me. In modern games, I find that it is hard not to just play the GPS game of go to the red circle, kill 10 things, and then run back along the sparkly line to turn the quest in, its efficient. I am not sure how others feel, but this gps efficiency is not a good thing for me and it takes you out of just playing the game and into the assembly line mentality. Also, welcome back Brad, I hope this project turns out great because there isn't much hope for the future out there....for me at least.

I don't hate the idea of mini maps. In theory they sound great.

The reality though, is that you spend more time watching the mini map than watching the world. It totally divorces you from the environment. I could tell you where I was in the karanas by looking at the hills and trees nearby FFS...

Quaid_sl said:

I don't hate the idea of mini maps. In theory they sound great.

The reality though, is that you spend more time watching the mini map than watching the world. It totally divorces you from the environment. I could tell you where I was in the karanas by looking at the hills and trees nearby FFS...

Click to expand...

I think this illustrates an overlooked , but important part, of one of the reasons many of us enjoyed EQ so much that seems minor at first but isn't. The rails and "helpful" systems over the years have basically been destroying the "you're in our world now". There is little to no "world". The map/GPS system is just one example.

Having to actually remember landmarks or POI , see the direction the sun is setting to get your handle on east/west and which direction Qeynos is and so on is something I'd much, much prefer over fantasy-world with drone accuracy GPS.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Maybe I'm bore-school, but I like the idea of key local NPCs knowing what's-what and will give the player hints through rumors and gossip. Instead of having to hunt for quests, the local innkeeper or tavern wench probably has a clue as to the latest happenings, so that's always a good place for a player to start asking around if they're into that kind of thing. Of course, after 1 day live, all the quests will be fully spoiled and most of us will just follow the wiki to the NPC coordinates like we did in the golden days..

Click to expand...

One of the few times I'll agree with PD. If you're going to have quests in the game you shouldn't have to walk up and talk to everyone to find quests. That's not to say going up and talking people shouldn't be rewarding, and shouldn't be the way to find a few rare quests but generally:

1. Bars & Inns. Buy a couple drinks talk to a few people in the bar or the Innkeeper/Bartender and that should be sufficient for the majority of quests nearby.
2. Guilds. Not just the rogue guild, pretty much any guild should have some quests available usually from the guildmaster or associates.
3. Boards for the odd find the outlaw quest.
4. Killing a mob that drops a quest item. (EQ style quest items, not WoW/VG style)


I will say quests can serve a purpose - I remember back in VG with Vault of the Hidden and the Crystal Dungeon. Both were very hidden and if you didn't know to go looking for them, it was easy to miss them and wonder what the Hell could you do in those areas.

I think the easy way to avoid a quest grind, with quests in the game, is to make sure they don't give too much (or really any) XP. It's when questing XP is better than grinding XP that you're pretty much forced to Quest grind.

@??? The person suggesting different paths for a class. I'm pretty much against anything that smacks of specs or talent trees. I wasn't a fan of the three types of Shaman in VG or three types of Monks etc - It never worked, they were never really balanced against each other and it was a lot of extra work for limited return. If you're a class you should be able to get everything available to that class - though it might require drops for spells, quests for the class epic, etc.

Now since there is an exception to every rule: I'd make one for Clerics who maybe get one - and only one - special blessing (curse) related to whichever god/ess they're following, just to make that choice meaningful.

Quaid_sl said:

I don't hate the idea of mini maps. In theory they sound great.

The reality though, is that you spend more time watching the mini map than watching the world.It totally divorces you from the environment.I could tell you where I was in the karanas by looking at the hills and trees nearby FFS...

Click to expand...

Very well said.

Love the idea of fewer, better quests, no more rat ears or bear asses. Some of my favorite EQ moments where from finding the perfect hunting places from Crushbone to Karnor's from Warrens to Drunder, feeling like I was advancing my character and being rewarded for finding those sweet spots in theopenworld.

For endgame I miss when the 'raid cap' was just the raid leader skill of gathering the most quality players we could keep busy while sharing afixedamount of loot.

Aradune_sl said:

Quite possible. EQ was done in 3 years for around $8M. March 96 thru March 99. We peaked with about 23 people but most of the time had fewer than that. The tech was primitive by today's standards. The tools probably wouldn't even be called tools today. And the people? We were clueless but determined

Click to expand...

So my question is this: in addition to crowdsourcing the funding via kickstarter do you have any plans to crowdsource any of the development via something like Neverwinter's Foundry or SOE's PlayerStudio? Or, as I suspect, is the overhead to do that more costly than anything you'd get out of it?

/Aside

Back to quests for one more go-around.

I think the best quests (e.g. for epics) should start EQ style - having to talk to some NPC, somewhere not in a bar. Quests you can pick up in a bar or guild through chatting with customers, bribing the Bartender, talking to the guildmaster should be average quests, average rewards. Finally quests you get from boards should be the lowest quality quests, lowest quality rewards (maybe just gold for turning in the head of the local bandit king). And again, even if you're not on the quest mobs should drop quest rewards - backflagging multi-staged quests was one big reason I quit Rift in beta and never looked back. I'd had enough of that crap in WoW, VG and LOTRO.

So much talk about quests....

Just give me some interesting dungeons and places to discover. I want to spend time crawling through places; not blasting through a theme park ride of mobs.

Please more of this:

Quaid_sl said:

I don't hate the idea of mini maps. In theory they sound great.

The reality though, is that you spend more time watching the mini map than watching the world. It totally divorces you from the environment. I could tell you where I was in the karanas by looking at the hills and trees nearby FFS...

Click to expand...

well, they don't ALL do this. But you are damn right, too many do. Its as bad, as "playing" a mmo by staring at hp bars and cooldowns.

So, I've been thinking about dungeons recently... And my experiences at WoW launch vs. Kunark/Velious era EQ, and then later in EQ2 & Vanguard.

I think it's safe to say the days of static camps + pulling are over. That was an emergent gameplay mechanic that the EQ devs never intended for. It arose because of certain ability mechanics (lull, FD) in concert with loot distribution methods (named spawns on predictable timers separated by trash)This was illustrated in EQ2 + VG when, while dungeons remained uninstanced, players ran through dungeons to their 'completion', or simply ran around them over and over clearing all spawns, in a similar fashion to WoW's instance runs.

Anyway, if you played these games, my question is this:

If players aren't going to do the pull/camp technique, and are going to dungeon crawl anyway, are large social dungeons even necessary? What did they add to the gameplay experience besides waiting in queues at the zone line (+social interaction) and potential trains (+danger/risk)? Would it not be preferable given these conditions to just run instanced dungeons to their completion, which means loot/hour was more predictable, and encounters could be designed more intricately?

Which do you think is more valuable to the gameplay experience?

I'm leaning towards well designed instances...

Quaid_sl said:

I think it's safe to say the days of static camps + pulling are over.

I'm leaning towards well designed instances...

Click to expand...

Ehhhh?

It's hard to have the dungeon design conversation with the limits on funding.. I prefer outdoor dungeons and a lot of them..big ones that scale 10 levels at times. This also takes time and cost lots of money:-(.

Btw.. Static camps were fun for a lot of people.. I enjoyed them.. Not sure they are gone forever if the game does utility classes well.

Merlin_sl said:

Ehhhh?

Click to expand...

What don't you understand dude?