Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Tuco

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Oh and for buying armor sets on a pre-release kickstarter, nothing would crack me up more than logging into the game and seeing people who spent $1000 buying an armor set that I'll outlevel in a few days.

Even if StarCitizen is amazing I think most people will regret paying as much as they have toward it.
 

Lithose

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The most important part about the EQ death penalty is that if you weren't a high level cleric you either had to ask someone for help or you had to eat a huge penalty. That forced socialization is really important.
Exactly. A lot of times "it's a pain in the ass" is MMO translation for "I had to talk to someone else."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for a return to EQ's time investment, or other crippling social factors. But I think people need to examine what's considered "fun" for people to be involved in socially--and most of the time, it involves a fair bit of stuff we'd, in the absence of context, say we dislike. (Like sports, for instance--outside of many types of sports, a lot of what we do in those games would be considered everything from annoying, work, strenuous, and even dangerous.) I think, especially lately, MMO's have tried to weed out anything that is even slightly annoying. And it's like trying to take tackles out of football, or running out of soccer--I mean, people sometimes like to play flag football, but is it ever going to develop a huge professional following? Nope. Can you make a small court soccer even out of shape people can play on? Yeah. Will that be interesting enough to capture global audiences? Nope. (For our foreign friends.)

Because a little bit of annoyance and difficulty is part of the human condition. I think there is a balance between where EQ was, and where WoW is, that is a "sweet spot". (I tend to think WoW vanilla came pretty close to it.) But what happened is Blizzard saw the huge jump in subs they got from pulling the accessibility lever, and decided to kick that into overdrive and it just pushed it too far.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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On the other hand, gaming is like taking out the actual physical parts of playing football!

I also agree that WoW got pretty close to a good sweet spot for an MMO. I feel like they made solo-content too prevalent and made loot too common. I'm a bit on the fence on whether instances for raids makes sense. After years of endgame raiding in WoW, the outdoor raids were always a pain in my ass so I don't really like them. However I think it's important that the world is full of powerful raid mobs. I also think they should be visible and aggro mid-high level players.
 

Noodleface

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I guess what I meant was if Copernicus had a kickstarter how would the kickstarter environment change? They still would've gone bankrupt and you would possibly have millions of dollars owed to consumers that they would never see. Would a project such as this even be able to get a kickstarter after such a failure? Would people ever trust another MMO and support their kickstarter? Especially from someone who brought arguably one of the worst failures to the table (although to me it is one of my favorite MMOs).

It's all conjecture though, as that never happened. I was merely thinking about it.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
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I guess what I meant was if Copernicus had a kickstarter how would the kickstarter environment change? They still would've gone bankrupt and you would possibly have millions of dollars owed to consumers that they would never see. Would a project such as this even be able to get a kickstarter after such a failure? Would people ever trust another MMO and support their kickstarter? Especially from someone who brought arguably one of the worst failures to the table (although to me it is one of my favorite MMOs).

It's all conjecture though, as that never happened. I was merely thinking about it.
I don't know much about kickstarter, but I would guess its not a guarantee of returns. Right? I think of it as an investment. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they do not. If you donate, your not guaranteed results. Anything I donate to the project is just that. A donation.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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If Copernicus had a kickstarter the game might have actually been released. Instead Curt got monopoly money from R.I and pissed it away with his greed and impatience.
 

Gnomedolf

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Social interaction is one of the things that made EQ so fun. Nowadays, with most games, you don't have to speak to a single person if you don't want to. Why play an MMO and not interact with others?
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Oh and for buying armor sets on a pre-release kickstarter, nothing would crack me up more than logging into the game and seeing people who spent $1000 buying an armor set that I'll outlevel in a few days.

Even if StarCitizen is amazing I think most people will regret paying as much as they have toward it.
Housing plots if there is non instanced housing. Mainly because I would prefer no RMT for anything and the game be funded by ks and paid alpha/beta, however I don't care about housing personally but know other people go nuts for it.

100.00 for a plot by a lake with a cherry tree
 

Jimbolini

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Housing plots if there is non instanced housing. Mainly because I would prefer no RMT for anything and the game be funded by ks and paid alpha/beta, however I don't care about housing personally but know other people go nuts for it.

100.00 for a plot by a lake with a cherry tree
Housing plots, or special mounts... I would pay $100 for an Elephant.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
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Yeah I'd have no problem with special items like a plot of land , one time only mounts that still are the same speed as in game mounts and so on to help get it funded further. Also I'm with the return to reasonable stats , a'la DnD str/dex etc and some resist or two. There's no need to have tons and tons of stats to worry about , but along the stats line , I'd really enjoy a return to making them matter both in racial choice and in overall effectiveness.
 

popsicledeath

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I think that kind of happened with VG. The beta boards were ridiculous with people and their shitty ideas. At one point Brad had to step in with a post to basically tell people to stfu. Those boards were so entertaining.
There were also good moments. Like, unless I'm remember way wrong, wasn't there somewhat serious talk of larger group sizes that thankfully enough sane discussion on the boards helped shout down. Because no, being able to add 5 or your dps friends instead of 2 isn't necessarily going to make the game more fun.
 

Hateyou

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There were also good moments. Like, unless I'm remember way wrong, wasn't there somewhat serious talk of larger group sizes that thankfully enough sane discussion on the boards helped shout down. Because no, being able to add 5 or your dps friends instead of 2 isn't necessarily going to make the game more fun.
But making 3 of your dps friends sit out of a group is more fun? What? You're right though, I believe the original plan was eight man groups rather than six. I didn't see a problem with it if the game was designed with that in mind. People couldn't wrap their heads around that though and called it zerging, and they changed their design idea. No reasons on why six is the proper number and not eight, or five, or fifteen, just sayings like " Because no, being able to add 5 or your dps friends instead of 2 isn't necessarily going to make the game more fun." This seemed to happen so much on those boards that the game was basically remade several times via changing design decisions rather than focusing on making the game not run like shit and filling the massive landscape with content.

Yes there were good discussions/ideas on that board, like there are in this thread, but it was hard to pick it out because of the sheer volume of crazed people who want the game to punch you in the balls every time you turn a corner. Some of which we are also seeing here...
 

popsicledeath

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Adding any number of extra spots in a group for dps doesn't make a game inherently more fun, first of all. Not to mention a game balanced for 8 man groups means content is tuned for, what, 5 dps spots, which is what everyone will aim for. A tank, a healer, maybe a support or second tank/healer, and then stacked dps. Meaning if you and two friends are online you'll be fucked if you want to do anything. Keeping groups 5 or 6 is a pretty good balance between having 'enough' spots for friends (which is an idiotic, unquantifiable stance anyhow), and keeping content balanced so smaller groups are still viable. The bigger the group, the more the shift in dps requirements raise, and at an exponential rate that screws over smaller groups.

Here's an old post I found from some board I've never heard of:

Shadowpuma View topic - Vanguard : saga of heros group size


Vanguard : saga of heros group size

Postby dosi ? Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:26 pm
In the "Heya folks how about group size?" thread,
Aradune Mithara was spotted Yesterday at 06:13 PM saying:

The current plan is max size of 8 for a group group (fighting group based mobs). 2 or 3 for casual. Raid we haven't totally worked out yet, whether it will be a max group size or some sort of group linking or both.

For groups though most encounters will be tuned around them being doable with groups of 6, so you can think of the target group size there being 6-8, with a hard cap of 8.

Let me know if that makes sense.
Thankfully, fairly overwhelmingly if I recall, we let him know that no, it didn't make sense. :p

I still think 5 or 6 is the sweet spot. 5 is good for games that are generally going to be more forgiving and an easier world to navigate. 6 better for games that are going to be generally tougher and less forgiving. Group sizes of 8 and you're suddenly having to design 'casual content' for small groups instead of giving skilled players a shot at meaningful content. And I'm not personally a fan of that, as it's similar to me as designing solo content (instead of just letting some classes and some players work out ways to succeed solo, like kiting, which wasn't because content was created to solo, but because players figured out ways to survive the content that simply existed in the context of the game).

So, yeah, I think anything about 6 turns into a shitfest, both in terms of it starting to feel more like a Diablo zerg, and in the fact it basically pushed the balance of power such that you're not making the game more fun because your theoretical 2/3 extra dps friends have to sit out, but making it less fun because smaller groups either don't have a chance to do anything until they add more (dps) or 'casual' content has to be created, and then enforced, or you have people steamrolling the 'easy' content to rush to max level, ala the solo-to-max syndrome that exists when a games balance of power is pushed too low or solo/casual content is specifically created.

One of the few things I'm still on the fence about in Vanguard is the dot system. I basically don't think 1 dots should have ever existed, because a minion is a fucking minion and doesn't need to be classified by difficulty rating. 2 dots were almost always too easy, and practically had a neon sign explaining they were catering to the solo-friendly mindset WoW created (and it's no surprise the majority of quests seemed to involved 2 dots, which is why people just grinded mindless, easy quests all damn day while dungeons were empty).

Basically, the outside world should have been 3 dots, with the occasional 4 dot named. And dungeons should have been 4 dot with the occasional 5 dot named. And raids should have been 5 dot with the occasional 6 dot named (where there 6 dots, I can't remember? hah). And how hard is that to remember based on the context of what you're killing that it needed advertised? As a player you should know what to expect by where you're fighting enough to not needing a dot or champion or elite indication system.

The dot system seemed to be a relic of the 8 man grouping idea, and the notion they needed to create mobs and content for every possible type of gamer. Hopefully they've gone away from that are are just going to create a world that is generally tough, and gets tougher the deeper you go into areas we're all smart enough to understand should contextually be tougher.

But, yeah, I generally liked Vanguards solution to grouping woes; the main one being classes that were interesting and fun and solved a lot of grouping related problems like not enough healers, not enough tanks, and all your lame ass friends wanting to play mindless dps with no support. Vanguard had less dps-class over-population than most games I've played, and the dps classes that did exist had far more widespread function and support than just mindless dps. Things I'm okay with.

That said, more support and wider function than just straight dps isn't an excuse for ability/skill/spell bloat.
 

shabushabu

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But making 3 of your dps friends sit out of a group is more fun? What? You're right though, I believe the original plan was eight man groups rather than six. I didn't see a problem with it if the game was designed with that in mind. People couldn't wrap their heads around that though and called it zerging, and they changed their design idea. No reasons on why six is the proper number and not eight, or five, or fifteen, just sayings like " Because no, being able to add 5 or your dps friends instead of 2 isn't necessarily going to make the game more fun." This seemed to happen so much on those boards that the game was basically remade several times via changing design decisions rather than focusing on making the game not run like shit and filling the massive landscape with content.

Yes there were good discussions/ideas on that board, like there are in this thread, but it was hard to pick it out because of the sheer volume of crazed people who want the game to punch you in the balls every time you turn a corner. Some of which we are also seeing here...
At some point with more people doesn't it become either a) Just add more HPs ( lame ) or b) just add more mobs ( lame ).... at some point if you are designing the game from scratch, perhaps additional roles could be created beyond the typical 4-5 to make 6,7,8 more than just DPS and make things interesting..
 

Furious

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does anyone know if the Unity engine provides any kind of way for users ( players ) to build content ? in other words, could they expose some unity tool without much modification to leverage the player base to create content ?
That would be a way to get two birds stoned. On a kickstarter or paid reward, people could buy a plot of land and use the dev tool kit to build a city of castle or whatever. If it was accepted as good enough by brad or the artist it would be patched into live and the player who built it could name it or something. Viola get us fans to pay to build your game!
 

Fedor

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Twitter / Aradune: @tom_ftw @WolfsheadOnline The ...

Brad McQuaid_sl said:
@tom_ftw @WolfsheadOnline The support already is amazing & we are truly honored & blown away. Thx everyone!Kickstarter site launching soon!
tumblr_l2oibwiSB01qz9rjn.gif


tumblr_l2oic3J0vk1qz9rjn.gif
 

popsicledeath

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At some point with more people doesn't it become either a) Just add more HPs ( lame ) or b) just add more mobs ( lame ).... at some point if you are designing the game from scratch, perhaps additional roles could be created beyond the typical 4-5 to make 6,7,8 more than just DPS and make things interesting..
Yeah, your group of 6 adventurers are fighting mobs while your crafter buddy is nearby at a forge making provisions that provide a 'sharper weapon' buff and your diplomacy friend is discussing the nature of war with the king of the bugbears you're murdering to find a peaceful resolution...
 

Aradune_sl

shitlord
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0
Adding any number of extra spots in a group for dps doesn't make a game inherently more fun, first of all. Not to mention a game balanced for 8 man groups means content is tuned for, what, 5 dps spots, which is what everyone will aim for. A tank, a healer, maybe a support or second tank/healer, and then stacked dps. Meaning if you and two friends are online you'll be fucked if you want to do anything. Keeping groups 5 or 6 is a pretty good balance between having 'enough' spots for friends (which is an idiotic, unquantifiable stance anyhow), and keeping content balanced so smaller groups are still viable. The bigger the group, the more the shift in dps requirements raise, and at an exponential rate that screws over smaller groups.

Here's an old post I found from some board I've never heard of:

Shadowpuma View topic - Vanguard : saga of heros group size


Vanguard : saga of heros group size




Thankfully, fairly overwhelmingly if I recall, we let him know that no, it didn't make sense. :p

I still think 5 or 6 is the sweet spot. 5 is good for games that are generally going to be more forgiving and an easier world to navigate. 6 better for games that are going to be generally tougher and less forgiving. Group sizes of 8 and you're suddenly having to design 'casual content' for small groups instead of giving skilled players a shot at meaningful content. And I'm not personally a fan of that, as it's similar to me as designing solo content (instead of just letting some classes and some players work out ways to succeed solo, like kiting, which wasn't because content was created to solo, but because players figured out ways to survive the content that simply existed in the context of the game).

So, yeah, I think anything about 6 turns into a shitfest, both in terms of it starting to feel more like a Diablo zerg, and in the fact it basically pushed the balance of power such that you're not making the game more fun because your theoretical 2/3 extra dps friends have to sit out, but making it less fun because smaller groups either don't have a chance to do anything until they add more (dps) or 'casual' content has to be created, and then enforced, or you have people steamrolling the 'easy' content to rush to max level, ala the solo-to-max syndrome that exists when a games balance of power is pushed too low or solo/casual content is specifically created.

One of the few things I'm still on the fence about in Vanguard is the dot system. I basically don't think 1 dots should have ever existed, because a minion is a fucking minion and doesn't need to be classified by difficulty rating. 2 dots were almost always too easy, and practically had a neon sign explaining they were catering to the solo-friendly mindset WoW created (and it's no surprise the majority of quests seemed to involved 2 dots, which is why people just grinded mindless, easy quests all damn day while dungeons were empty).

Basically, the outside world should have been 3 dots, with the occasional 4 dot named. And dungeons should have been 4 dot with the occasional 5 dot named. And raids should have been 5 dot with the occasional 6 dot named (where there 6 dots, I can't remember? hah). And how hard is that to remember based on the context of what you're killing that it needed advertised? As a player you should know what to expect by where you're fighting enough to not needing a dot or champion or elite indication system.

The dot system seemed to be a relic of the 8 man grouping idea, and the notion they needed to create mobs and content for every possible type of gamer. Hopefully they've gone away from that are are just going to create a world that is generally tough, and gets tougher the deeper you go into areas we're all smart enough to understand should contextually be tougher.

But, yeah, I generally liked Vanguards solution to grouping woes; the main one being classes that were interesting and fun and solved a lot of grouping related problems like not enough healers, not enough tanks, and all your lame ass friends wanting to play mindless dps with no support. Vanguard had less dps-class over-population than most games I've played, and the dps classes that did exist had far more widespread function and support than just mindless dps. Things I'm okay with.

That said, more support and wider function than just straight dps isn't an excuse for ability/skill/spell bloat.
FYI, we are not planning on using a dot system like VG did. This could always change, but that's the plan right now.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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FYI, we are not planning on using a dot system like VG did. This could always change, but that's the plan right now.
Lol wonder how players would handle it if you didn't use any system like Popsicle mentioned...I really like the thought of that haha.. Talk about trial and error..

Very soon on the KS? Hopefully this week!?