Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Flipmode_sl said:

You're an idiot. Really. Make some good points sometimes. Others are just nerd fueled, internet rage and vitriol to appear like a witty, sarcastic tough guy. It's time to put the keyboard down for a bit chief. Visit the rickshaw forum. It's more your speed.

And next time stop making assumptions. I concede third person is my preference over the shitty first person ones we have. You assumed its because of PVP and wanting to cheat. And you also assumed I don't have a computer capable of running eyefinity or surround. Just stop already. You're getting quite retarded.

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When did I say it was due to pvp and wanting to cheat? I wouldn't make that assumption, because most people I know who like good pvp don't like ezmode third person arcade-style games and would rather have first person where you have to have a shred of skill to even keep on an enemy.

You keep saying you want good first person, when it's potentially the best it can get right now being able to run multiple monitors. You seem to generalize that all first person pov sucks, when you clearly just don't want to use first person or you would be, and better than ever, since the tools are there and you say you have the means. Why not say you want the game to support three monitor resolutions so you can have a better first person?

Because, as we've finally agree to what I was saying all along, you prefer third person and instead of just owning up to it, are making up bullshit reasons. Why, I don't know. Why not just say that you want third person pov, and why instead you vaguely imply first-person is somehow shit because it's not what you would really see in real life. As if third person is more like it. If someone can make the exact same argument for the opposite of what you want, then you're doing something wrong, because someone could easily say third person isn't even close to what we see in real life so first person is better because it's closer.

But, you're right. I challenge your reasoning. You call me an idiot and retard. Well played! You've won this round!

jilena_sl said:

So I'm assuming it's just what I am used to/expecting for that game type.

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This is what usually happens. I went back to try Skyrim with a ton of mods and had to force myself into first-person using the 'realistic' mod. When you swing a 2handed sword your head bobs wildly and the view is limited (which doesn't bother me since my character is always wearing a helm or hood or something anyhow, so not like I'd be able to have great peripheral vision anyhow). I had a hard time with the first person, though, and went back to third a few times.

My first thought was even that first-person was just shit and I used to be naive when I enjoyed it in games like EQ and a few RPGs like Dark Messiah. But, I stuck with it and it became more natural again. It's not as easy, that's for sure, as I actually have to pay attention and instead of just zooming out to find where a dragon is flying I have to, gasp, look around. Makes the game far more intense, that's for sure. And while my other play-throughs were with the 'this is my character/pet' syndrome, I feel it's more role-playing now as if I, myself, am in the game, which I like.

I'm not afraid of saying I like role-playing. It's more fun to imagine what I would do in a game, rather than what I would make a puppet do. And I think it makes for a different dynamic, too, because it personalizes the game more than just a third-person arcade pew-pew-pew slaughter fest. I'd go so far as to say the fact that a good amount of people used first person either all the time or most of the time in EQ (in my experience) helped the social aspects of the game. Because you internalized and personalized your character, people thought about what they were doing instead of just treating the game like they're pushing around a disposable character to do their bidding. You WERE your character in EQ, and that meant a lot more than just what field of vision you had.

Can mobs please go back to visibly holding and using the weapon they're about to drop? Like say, Willsapper. And make use of effects on their gear, like FBSS hasting the frenzy frog's melee.

Chakravartin_sl said:

Can mobs please go back to visibly holding and using the weapon they're about to drop? Like say, Willsapper. And make use of effects on their gear, like FBSS hasting the frenzy frog's melee.

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That worked great with showEQ too. You could determine some drops because of a light source property being present.

Popsicle going full tuna up in here.

popsicledeath_sl said:

When did I say it was due to pvp and wanting to cheat?I wouldn't make that assumption, because most people I know who like good pvp don't like ezmode third person arcade-style games and would rather have first person where you have to have a shred of skill to even keep on an enemy.

You keep saying you want good first person, when it's potentially the best it can get right now being able to run multiple monitors. You seem to generalize that all first person pov sucks, when you clearly just don't want to use first person or you would be, and better than ever, since the tools are there and you say you have the means. Why not say you want the game to support three monitor resolutions so you can have a better first person?

Because, as we've finally agree to what I was saying all along, you prefer third person and instead of just owning up to it, are making up bullshit reasons. Why, I don't know. Why not just say that you want third person pov, and why instead you vaguely imply first-person is somehow shit because it's not what you would really see in real life. As if third person is more like it. If someone can make the exact same argument for the opposite of what you want, then you're doing something wrong, because someone could easily say third person isn't even close to what we see in real life so first person is better because it's closer.

But, you're right. I challenge your reasoning. You call me an idiot and retard. Well played! You've won this round!

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popsicledeath_sl said:

And third person view isn't a realistic, true-to-vision representation either. My guess is you just personally prefer third-person, probably for it's advantages, so are coming up with reasoning to support your personal preference. Just say you like it better and I can respect it. Because by your logic you should have huge blind spots in your third-person view behind your character (which is an idea), unless your peripheral vision includes looking out your brown eye as well.

It's cool. Just say you like third person better.Admit you don't like people sneaking up on your in pvp or some shit and don't want to have to turn around to look all the time.It's all good. Less people will call attention to just saying you prefer something for personal reasons than trying to make it into some huge 'realism' bullshit.

I mean, if I were to buy you two other monitors and a graphics card that wasn't shit so you could do a fuller first-person vision, would you then prefer the game be in first person?

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popsicledeath_sl said:

Like the back of your head, ala a zoomed in, over the shoulder third person?Just admit you want the advantage and laziness of third-person and be done with it.The whole 'not like I'd actually see in real life' argument is hilariously idiotic and about the worst 'realism' argument I've ever seen made.

Though, seeing the back of your head might actually be possible if you tried to pull your head out of your ass.

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See the highlighted portions to see just a few of your innocent assumptions. You're being an asshat and insulting me first so don't try to take the shock and awe factor when you get railed on back.

Secondly, I stated several times I'm all for a BETTER first person camera just not the current crap we have. If the choice is between more of this type of first person camera and a third person camera, I'll take the third person camera. Just by stating that I'm making it known it's my preference you fucking retard. Duh. But my preference is limited between those 2 options unless we have a viable third option. And since eyefinity and surround have a whole other host of issues, a better camera is the preferred option.

Now can you kindly stop with the verbose responses and stfu? Thanks.

Dumar_sl said:

Also, Brad. Please print both of these out, plaster them in your studio office as a reminder to not lose focus:

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The creator of Sebiilis (and many other classic zones) recently joined the team. We asked him to make his first Pantheon dungeon make Sebilis look like a pre-school. He smiled and nodded.

Sooo why should we trust Brad and co to make a good MMO? I mean, Vanguard had a lot of good stuff in it, but it just seemed like way more than the whole team could chew. Not to mention it sounds like they're going for massive again (looking at the concept art and what not). I could see him doing a good, smaller MMO. But I have little faith that he can do a big budget one.

Also, does anyone have a compilation of details released about the game so far so I can go over it?

Flipmode_sl said:

Secondly, I stated several times I'm all for a BETTER first person camera just not the current crap we have.

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Okay. I just find it odd my assumptions and questions were met with names like idiot and retard instead of you just explaining your point of view in a way that made sense, because saying you want a better first person pov is a bit different from:

Flipmode_sl said:

Screw first person only view. Most cameras limit the FOV you would actually see in real first person and are therefore crap. Third person please.

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That kind of refined thinking could be used to support any argument anyone wanted.

Screw group content. Most games make group content into instanced, gear check, speed runs. Solo content only please.

Screw quests. Most games make quests into a hub based grind. No quests please.

I hope you see why I didn't find your argument to be very effective. Asking for something to be better is kind of the opposite of writing off that thing because it's been done poorly.

Honest question. If your major gripe is that you want a more realistic field of view, what about a third person that blurs out everything behind your character that wouldn't be in their peripheral vision? That would be more akin to what you could realistically see, which would be more satisfying if you major gripe is how first person limits your field of vision from being realistic.

popsicledeath_sl said:

The camera options never seemed intended to use as normal, but just to help get screenshots.

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As a bard, I had camera controls on pure muscle memory for swarming. To this day I can rapid-fire F9 to find exactly the angle I need without even thinking about it, even after years away

Aradune_sl said:

The creator of Sebiilis (and many other classic zones) recently joined the team. We asked him to make his first Pantheon dungeon make Sebilis look like a pre-school. He smiled and nodded.

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I am thrilled to hear this. Oldschool EQ dungeons are some of the coolest gaming memories I have.

Sithro_sl said:

Not to mention it sounds like they're going for massive again (looking at the concept art and what not). I could see him doing a good, smaller MMO. But I have little faith that he can do a big budget one.

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I didn't see anything in the concept art that made me think it was indicating it would be massive (whatever that means) or required being big budget. Please explain the 'what not' you're referring to, because the concept art alone didn't give me these impressions.

Khayos_sl said:

I personally do not want flying in the game even as flight paths, however if flying mounts were to be put into the game I feel the best way would be as a reward for defeating the most difficult raid encounter in the game(to date), and only one person from the raid can get it at a time. Then have the Flying mount have a time limit of X amount of time per day of use, based on the world size, so you cant always fly all over the place. This way you have to plan how you are going to use it, if at all each day. (See Log Horizon Episode 2 and 3).

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I can say at this point that were we to ever have flying mounts then it would be a stretch goal. Flying and getting flying done right is some serious work and can't be rushed.

As for 1st and 3rd person views, you can choose either, and we are architecting the world the same as EQ and VG (so in confined quarters 3rd person becomes less useful, but then outdoors you can back the camera out and use it during travel to make sure nothing is chasing you, etc. )

Aradune_sl said:

The creator of Sebiilis (and many other classic zones) recently joined the team. We asked him to make his first Pantheon dungeon make Sebilis look like a pre-school. He smiled and nodded.

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Now that's damned good to hear!

popsicledeath_sl said:

I didn't see anything in the concept art that made me think it was indicating it would be massive (whatever that means) or required being big budget. Please explain the 'what not' you're referring to, because the concept art alone didn't give me these impressions.

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That castle is pretty massive looking in the OP. I don't want another town like New Targonor where it's huge, but empty and unfinished. I'd rather they stay within do-able means, and not good full retard.

I want to believe, but I've been burned so many times.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Okay. I just find it odd my assumptions and questions were met with names like idiot and retard instead of you just explaining your point of view in a way that made sense, because saying you want a better first person pov is a bit different from:



That kind of refined thinking could be used to support any argument anyone wanted.

Screw group content. Most games make group content into instanced, gear check, speed runs. Solo content only please.

Screw quests. Most games make quests into a hub based grind. No quests please.

I hope you see why I didn't find your argument to be very effective. Asking for something to be better is kind of the opposite of writing off that thing because it's been done poorly.

Honest question. If your major gripe is that you want a more realistic field of view, what about a third person that blurs out everything behind your character that wouldn't be in their peripheral vision? That would be more akin to what you could realistically see, which would be more satisfying if you major gripe is how first person limits your field of vision from being realistic.

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I have no issues with that. I don't need to see around corners. I like the sense of danger as much as the rest of you.

Your leap of logic was making a ton of assumption with insults and then get offended when I insult back. Don't really need to back my argument up with someone who just wants to play the e-tough guy role and not get into real discussion. You just basically give sarcastic answers and insult everyone in a lot of threads here. I actually enjoyed your posting on FoH because you added a little more value to what you posted.

Again, I have no stake in the game yet. I'm just stating my opinion, which you are free to disagree with. But start hurling insults and then try to call me to the carpet if I hit back. It's bad form.

Back to the topic how can a better first person camera be developed that allows better peripheral vision and a better field of view to see slightly above and below your character? If that can be achieved without tons of camera manipulation, I can get behind something like that.

In the absence of such a camera view, I'd rather see MORE than less. That is my preference. Has dick all to do with PVP or cheating. I don't even PVP because it's my opinion PVP in MMOs with defined class roles is lame and leads to homogenization.

Aradune_sl said:

The creator of Sebiilis (and many other classic zones) recently joined the team. We asked him to make his first Pantheon dungeon make Sebilis look like a pre-school. He smiled and nodded.

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That's the best news from Pantheon I've heard. Having Venril Sathir on the team will be huge!

Aradune_sl said:

...in confined quarters 3rd person becomes less useful....

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The problem was how often what should have been confined quarters in Vanguard weren't confined at all, and there was no choice: you used third person because it made the game easier. It was probably easier to code in third person, making everything open like that, too. Easier is rarely more gratifying in the end, though.

Like how all the cities seemed to share architectural philosophy that people might suddenly grow to be 15 feet tall, so they'd better put the largest doorways and ceilings possible into every building. Even more troublesome is how many mobs seemed to share the same architectural philosophy.

"So, boss, we've got plenty of room to walk through this dank cave to our hideout, what should we do now, build up defenses, plan a heist, build a damn kitchen and hire a chef so we can actually eat something?"

"No, idiot, make the cave walls even wider, ceiling even higher! Adventurer's might come through and we want to make sure they can have a good view of their character to measure their achievement and watch the cool sparkles that occur every time they activate an ability!"

Hopefully the game truly will be designed as cramped and claustrophobic when it makes sense, but citing Vanguard isn't the best because most dungeons seemed made with third person in mind. I remember in plenty of dungeons I wondered why they even bothered putting a roof on buildings, caves or dungeons, as it just caused camera issues. I hope Pantheon won't have that same syndrome and really will force (erm, I mean encouraged) players to zoom into first person. I won't hold it against you when this doesn't happen, though, because if you design third-person as a choice, the game has to be designed to allow it as a choice or people will have issues with it, and it will be the only choice for most players, in most circumstances.

Flipmode_sl said:

Your leap of logic was making a ton of assumption with insults and then get offended when I insult back. Don't really need to back my argument up with someone who just wants to play the e-tough guy role and not get into real discussion. You just basically give sarcastic answers and insult everyone in a lot of threads here. I actually enjoyed your posting on FoH because you added a little more value to what you posted.

But start hurling insults and then try to call me to the carpet if I hit back. It's bad form.

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I'm sorry you thought I was saying you're an idiot. I was just trying to say your thought process and the way you expressed your opinion sounded idiotic. I can see you're a very sensitive fellow, though, seeing as how often you go to the 'you think you're a tough guy on the internet' sort of schtick. I still think there's a difference between me saying your thought process is idiotic and your reasoning terrible and wondering why you can't just have an opinion without rationalizing it with bullshit... and you vaging the fuck out calling people retards and shit.

missed this:

Flipmode_sl said:

I actually enjoyed your posting on FoH because you added a little more value to what you posted.

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Cuts to the bone. Now my feelings are hurted. I said I was sorry you said something I thought was really stupid. It's bound to happen at some point. It doesn't mean I don't want you to stop liking me, though! Pa-lease...

Oh, wait, that was the sarcasm you were talking about? A point I wouldn't argue.

Is it possible I, or even we all, are even more jaded than we were on FoH? Hrm, something to think about, for sure.

You'll group with me and tad in Pantheon, though, right? Cmon, it'll be fun.

Aradune_sl said:

The creator of Sebiilis (and many other classic zones) recently joined the team. We asked him to make his first Pantheon dungeon make Sebilis look like a pre-school. He smiled and nodded.

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I hope you aren't fucking with us.

Hekotat_sl said:

I hope you aren't fucking with us.

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I tell you... he's playing with our hearts.
Brad, you're such a tease.