Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,378
1,079
The problem with flight paths/coaches/whatever type of travel forced you into inaction is that it is doesn't make you appreciate how big the world is, it just makes you hate the time spent during that ride. Nothing takes me out of a game faster than forced inaction. I used the flight path time in WoW to go to the bathroom and get food, not admire how much time I was saving. In my opinion, instant teleports (as a replacement for travel paths) in a world where you have no GPS, no super fast mounts, and a truly deadly world only eliminate the down time. If you then limited the number of times per day you could use the instant teleports then they become a convenience rather than a crutch. Some smart dude posted his idea a few pages back but got no comments on if it was bad and why:



Maybe one in each zone is a little too common, so make it some out of the way place so that the player is still forced to travel on foot to get to most places of interest/dungeon/cities but even then the players is still actively playing the game instead of hating life as they sit on the same 6 minute flight path from Orgrimmar to 1kN for the hundredth time.
POK was one of the most limited and restricted forms of fast travel I have seen in any game and it still made the world feel much smaller. Dunno how you avoid it when you allow instant fast travel. It makes you lose respect for distance. Flight paths and autohorses are a time to afk ya, but so are boat rides. And flight paths still make you respect distance, you didnt treat a flight from darnasus to silithus like it was trip from stormwind to westfall. You knew that was a long ass way across the world because it took a long time.

Plus flight paths still perserve some of the need for people to ask wizards/druids for ports if they want to go somewhere fast.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
I don't care for Bind Soul. I get the interaction it forces, but there are plenty of times there was no caster available. At the very least, there should be an NPC at each bind location that can do it for you.
I thought Bind Soul was a terrible mechanic, personally.

The solution is simple: permadeath.
 

Mur_sl

shitlord
234
0
Leave reinventing the wheel to someone else Brad,

Levels are ok
Contested contest is ok
Defined classes are ok
Death penalties are ok
Travel taking time is ok
The journey being as important as "end game" is ok
No flying is ok
Everyone not getting to everything anytime they want is ok
Ugly races are ok
Not balancing classes for soloing is ok

and here's a pet peeve of mine personally from games lately not having this,

Falling damage , indeed dying by falling , is ok.
I'd say that not only are the things listed in your post ok, they are in fact highly desirable. All of those things help make a game interesting.
 

Ararkham_sl

shitlord
3
0
No POK. Just no. Give certain classes high level ports and be done with it.
+1.

System was totally great in EQ1... Druid and Wizzy gate/tp .. Players had to have socials interactions.

Also, i loved how the class were designed in EQ1.. Each class had his utility and role... Also some spells were just "specials" (CoH, Wizz TP to Planes, Magician rods and weapons, Necro corpse summoning)..

Take EQ1 core + VG stuff (i loved bloodmage) + actual tech = Best MMO...

Also, Brad, please, do not focus on Graphic system.. I just hope for a "decent" graphic system, not an ubber one with reflect on every square of grass, ubber shadows and so ...

Arar
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
25,448
37,590
Shit has to be balanced, though. I dont want most of my playtime wrapped up in traveling either. Some of you are fucking idiots with this shit. Give it a rest already. I dont want to get a message from my buddy across the world that I have to trudge through just to get to him to group up only to realize the playtime is over or the group hes in is disbanding now because it took me a hour to get there. Is it even worthwhile to try to get to him? Then the next day do the same.

There was a reason they added all that shit in EQ eventually because the more zones and continents they added, the more time it took to get places, duh.

Im all for a large world and it feeling like one. But I also dont want my entire play session wrapped up in travel either. Looking for a druid or wizzie at the off hours, begging them to port me around.

There was also the reason people stuck to like 4 zones to level up as well when Kunark released because the rest of the shit was not worth it, Remember? Or is it you are looking at the EQ through rose colored glasses?
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I hope this game doesn't have pulling, it's the dumbest mechanic ever. It's a left over of an age where tech and programming were limited. Aggro ranges are stupid. If a bad guy can see you, he should be doing something about it.

The only pulling mechanic that I think is valid is baiting a mob to chase you from some location over to your group from around a corner or something.
 

Mahulk_sl

shitlord
37
0
Vanguard, outside of the in-game issues that could have been worked on, suffered from bad timing IMO. Players were tired of these old mechanics and, more importantly, were busy trying the new mechanics that WoW was offering. Like many said, vanilla WoW was good and it took a few more years of dumbing down the game and clones with similar mechanics for "hardcorer" players to realise those games were missing something that those older games offered with their rougher edges.

The game had a playerbase, but a large portion was busy looking elsewhere.
 

jilena_sl

shitlord
123
0
Unfortunately, EverQuest suffered from this type of artificial inflation. I'd like to see this practice completely eliminated in Pantheon.
I always felt the itemization through Velious in EQ was pretty reasonable. The badass gear felt badass and the normal people gear wasn't complete trash. And a lot if good gear could be purchased or traded for.

*shrug*
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
25,448
37,590
I hope this game doesn't have pulling, it's the dumbest mechanic ever. It's a left over of an age where tech and programming were limited. Aggro ranges are stupid. If a bad guy can see you, he should be doing something about it.

The only pulling mechanic that I think is valid is baiting a mob to chase you from some location over to your group from around a corner or something.
YOu never played EQ, so how would you know?
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
I hope this game doesn't have pulling, it's the dumbest mechanic ever. It's a left over of an age where tech and programming were limited. Aggro ranges are stupid. If a bad guy can see you, he should be doing something about it.

The only pulling mechanic that I think is valid is baiting a mob to chase you from some location over to your group from around a corner or something.
I don't mind if they remove pulling for smarter mob AI. However, pulling is preferred over WoW, which doesn't have pulling, or CC (no longer), or anything in place of it but mowing down group after group of mobs.

Brad said pulling was an accident. That's fine, but it was a good accident for its time. There has to be mechanics that require strategy when facing more than one mob.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
I hope this game doesn't have pulling, it's the dumbest mechanic ever. It's a left over of an age where tech and programming were limited. Aggro ranges are stupid. If a bad guy can see you, he should be doing something about it.

The only pulling mechanic that I think is valid is baiting a mob to chase you from some location over to your group from around a corner or something.
Are you trolling?! It adds so much in utility to classes.. Assuming you mean things like mez/fd were part of a pulling strategy and are bad??
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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It was a good accident then. Because it allowed more social interaction. Something thats integral to a mmorpg. And something that is blatantly missing from tdays mmorpgs which auto group you together from other servers, then you mindlessly run through an L shaped instance and then rinse and repeat with some other people you dont know, and dont care to know and not even say one word most of the time, unless someone fucks up and then you just yell at them for being an idiot.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
I'd like to see 16+ classes in at launch, seems a bit much though given their limited resources.
If they have a lot of classes, I hope they end up doing what I talked about earlier--really designing the game with a "strategic" mind set. WoW has really focused on the tactical aspect of MMO's--buffs have been homogenized into discreet categories, most of them raid wide and essentially copies with different names. I remember the push for this with WoW--and the lead developer saying "you shouldn't want X class because he brings Y buff, you should just want the player because they are good". And that made sense if you're only focused on discreet encounters and how your tactical game plays out (IE what you do within a fight.) And WoW is very focused on that, discreet encounter or "tactical" difficulty.

But it cost the game big in terms of strategic challenge. What I mean by that is in a game with more unique buffs, and limited buffing based on group (Especially things like auras)--your group compositions affected the outcomes of fights a great deal. Do you put a the guy with +Fire Resist aura in with the melee during a heavy fire AE fight, or do you put augment the group with a melee aura buff and let them use the weaker targeted fire resist? Or maybe you set your melee groups up to have less melee damage but include both buffs, so the individual melee in the group are more durable and do higher DPS each (But lower overall.)

Now the above does lead to "raid stacking"--and that was seen as bad. But I think that stemmed more from WoW's focus on tactical difficulty. In WoW, the fights themselves were meant to be a challenge. While in EQ, sustaining the fights, and moving on to the next kill was the challenge--so the challenge was in fightingefficiently, and strategically. If the game is focused more on doing things effeciently, then I believe a system where each class greatly affects the raid in unique ways, wouldn't lead to class stacking per encounter but rather would lead to carefully designing guilds to maximize efficiency of the classes already there.

I say it a lot, but building a guild or a group should be a meta game in and of itself--much like building a deck of cards in a TCG. When WoW tore down the "unique" buff system, they got rid of that meta game. But I think it's one aspect that should be revisited and perhaps iterated on a great deal. I'd love it if a group that had a Warrior, Rogue, Enchanter, Shaman, Ranger, Cleric played completely and totally differently than a Paladin, Rogue, Wizard, Enchanter, Necromancer, Druid--and not just on the WoW sense of the word where each class does it's own thing, but rather that the buffs brought to the table can make the SAME class (In this case, the rogue) play completely differently. So in this rough example, the Rogue in our first group would play as a melee DPS (Standard) with melee buffs to improve his damage. But in the second group, while he still could play as standard melee DPS, hecouldinstead play the role of setting up enemies for the casters to kill--because he's got certain buffs from the paladin and the Wizard/Necro themselves, to make certain skills of his weaken enemies to casters.

So, in essence, each class affects another differently depending on group comp. This way, even a small number of variables at the class level, can produce an extremely large amount in the meta play of groups--and this can create tons of outcomes for forming and using group. Would this be hard to balance? Yeah. But I hope with less focus on instancing, and discreet encounters (IE less "tactical" focus), balance won't matteras muchin terms of how difficult a mob is to defeat but rather, it should be about efficiency. Which is what EQ was more about--killing a mob wasn't tactically very hard usually, even raid bosses. What was hard was doing it efficiently enough to gear the raid, and make it so you could get to the mob before someone else--EQ was an example of efficiency over direct difficulty (Which is another way of saying strategic difficulty instead of tactical difficulty.)
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
It was a good accident then. Because it allowed more social interaction. Something thats integral to a mmorpg. And something that is blatantly missing from tdays mmorpgs which auto group you together from other servers, then you mindlessly run through an L shaped instance and then rinse and repeat with some other people you dont know, and dont care to know and not even say one word most of the time, unless someone fucks up and then you just yell at them for being an idiot.
Let's not forget one other thing... People fucking enjoyed it.. It was fun! So many fun mechanics have been removed and replaced with shit.. It never made sense to me.. Games are suppose to be fun in the end.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,329
43,180
Pulling/splitting was mostly unintended, but it's a large part of what made Everquest what it was(for me at least). Pulling for raids was cool, but really, doing solo or group stuff that was challenging and keeping up with respawn, while trying to pull safely and efficiently. That was probably the most fun aspect of EQ for me, as a monk.
 

Korrupt

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,832
1,228
Thats crazy pulling was an accident, I always felt like that was one of the better parts of EQ. Pulling the original PoS, VP, and Velious Bosses on my SK were some of the funnest things I did in EQ.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,378
1,079
I don't mind if they remove pulling for smarter mob AI. However, pulling is preferred over WoW, which doesn't have pulling, or CC (no longer), or anything in place of it but mowing down group after group of mobs.

Brad said pulling was an accident. That's fine, but it was a good accident for its time. There has to be mechanics that require strategy when facing more than one mob.
Its not like the two alternative are either pulling or running 5 man wow content solo in the free endgame gear they hand out cause its the end of an expac.

Pulling beyond just playing smart is actually a pretty boring mechanic. It almost always involved just one guy in your group doing something while everyone else waited. It took some skill on the pullers part but acting like it added strategy to group combat is a big stretch, if anything it removed strategy because you got to deal with small bite sized groups of mobs that required no strategy to beat instead of having to fight the larger group.

Personally I am partial to the mob AI in real RPGs, stuff like skyrim where if i barrel into a room making a ton of noise everyone comes to see wtf just happened. With agro radius being applied where it makes sense like with wild animals or bandits not attacking you on sight but only if you get too close instead of just applying it to every mob so the dragon or demon who can clearly see me just sits and waits for me to attack it.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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It was even fun in a grind group. I was a ranger and I did that many a time in the outdoors.

Also I think some pulling was an accident, like monk feign death splitting. But I have a hard time believing that all pulling in EQ was an accident when they had spells that actually made you pull one from the pack, like harmony.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Pulling/splitting was mostly unintended, but it's a large part of what made Everquest what it was(for me at least). Pulling for raids was cool, but really, doing solo or group stuff that was challenging and keeping up with respawn, while trying to pull safely and efficiently. That was probably the most fun aspect of EQ for me, as a monk.
I didn't play a monk but it looked like a blast and skill was obvious within the class. It was very noticeable.. Same with a pulling bard. Some players excelled and others not so much.. It was also cool to see monks/bards in your guild improve which I remember vividly 2 players doing that. Lithose is talking about it above with buffs but the uniqueness of pulling classes really added/changed how a group/raid went about pulling a zone. Having and not having a puller completely changed the dynamics of the group..