Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I remember waiting 3 hours for the pullers/clerics/chantys to figure out wtf they were doing and how they were going to organize the Rathe Council rotation. I fucking felt bad I couldn't help at all. That was a sadistic design by the devs. WOW.

There is also something to be said about EQ having all these unique utility abilities and players using them in a way that weren't intended. I think the removal of them has been a big mistake and really killed my enjoyment of MMO's.

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

I don't care for Bind Soul. I get the interaction it forces, but there are plenty of times there was no caster available. At the very least, there should be an NPC at each bind location that can do it for you.

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I wouldnt mind bind npcs at local inns or class guilds. Again, in limited locations and not at every small tent camp you come across (I dont even want those tent camps but thats another story).

I think many of the initial additions of WoW are okay, they just overdid it, especially in the last few years. For example some iconic routes having a flight/coach path for auto-travel is ok with me just not a batrider at every second junction. If they are only available for specific routes and take their time, that's pretty much landbased boats. You like boats, right?

I want everyone to be able to solo, but I want it to *always* be the better choice to group up and duo/trio instead of soloing side by side.

I want cool item rewards from a quest - but not for every menial delivery task that takes two minutes to complete.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Seconded , as someone who enjoyed original L2 grind, pvp , music , environment and all, soul shots were one of the worst mechanics ever in a game.

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fair enough, i was aiming not so much the double dmg part of it, but that everything could be ground down to something common and something people would use. most games these days that have anything like that are broken into crafting mats which just feeds back into the issue of adding more gear, need something that actually exits the loop that isn't gear based, is consumed, and consumed quickly.

Convo_sl said:

There is also something to be said about EQ having all these unique utility abilities and players using them in a way that weren't intended. I think the removal of them has been a big mistake and really killed my enjoyment of MMO's.

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Prime example of this was the moronic decision upon EQ2 launch for the "locked" encounters while fighting. I see someone getting thrashed in open world by some mob and try and help them , unless they "released" the encounter I couldn't help them. The devs putting that in to try and combat power-leveling was one of the stupidest things I've seen.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Prime example of this was the moronic decision upon EQ2 launch for the "locked" encounters while fighting. I see someone getting thrashed in open world by some mob and try and help them , unless they "released" the encounter I couldn't help them. The devs putting that in to try and combat power-leveling was one of the stupidest things I've seen.

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Yes, that was really dumb.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Prime example of this was the moronic decision upon EQ2 launch for the "locked" encounters while fighting. I see someone getting thrashed in open world by some mob and try and help them , unless they "released" the encounter I couldn't help them. The devs putting that in to try and combat power-leveling was one of the stupidest things I've seen.

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It's such a fine line because sometimes you remove "fun" for the sake of the game.. There has been too much fun removed. You compare all the fun things you could do in say EQ to the fun things you can do in Rift or more recent FF and there is no comparison. Especially within a unique class. It's really watered down the class system which was in Rifts case the more appealing features going in.

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

Yes, that was really dumb.

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Troy, you working on Pantheon?

Convo_sl said:

It's such a fine line because sometimes you remove "fun" for the sake of the game.. There has been too much fun removed. You compare all the fun things you could do in say EQ to the fun things you can do in Rift or more recent FF and there is no comparison. Especially within a unique class. It's really watered down the class system which was in Rifts case the more appealing features going in.

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like charming low level mobs in noob areas and buffing the piss out of them, then releasing them. or giving dain 2 hammers. I miss odd crap that.

Prime example of this was the moronic decision upon EQ2 launch for the "locked" encounters while fighting. I see someone getting thrashed in open world by some mob and try and help them , unless they "released" the encounter I couldn't help them. The devs putting that in to try and combat power-leveling was one of the stupidest things I've seen.

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This irritated me to no end. It hurt more than it helped.

ImmoralityTX_sl said:

This irritated me to no end. It hurt more than it helped.

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The hurt more than helped is something I hope Brad gets.

I've just found that most of the "rails" put in over the years to try and correct what are seen as problems , have done far , far more damage to the overall feeling of a virtual world mmo , than any of the actual problems.

I just never saw powerleveling as a problem that needed a mechanic like locked encounters to correct. Did powerleveling really destroy or hurt EQ overall in any way ? Didn't the idea of healing and helping random folks come up as something that would go away if they locked encounters ? I just don't get why they went full bore , put in rails and limitations all around , when the freedom aspect of figuring out odd things to do in odd ways was one of the great charms of EQ.

caesium_sl said:

like charming low level mobs in noob areas and buffing the piss out of them, then releasing them. or giving dain 2 hammers. I miss odd crap that.

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So many little things like this are make a world feel real and not like sterilized plastic. I think a lot of people miss the point, and in the mad dash to add rubber bumpers to all the sharp corners, you actually get a less robust player experience.

It's the little things that count. Clickies, weird spells (turning into a wagon with minor illusion, anyone?), and neat secrets that experienced players discover all do their part in making the play experience more satisfying. It lets you feel accomplished outside of raw power advancement, which is an unheard of thing nowadays.

As an example, there was an Alliance quest in vanilla WoW that gave you an item that turned you into a Furbolg. If you started the quest, but never turned it in, you could keep the item forever. It was just a cool little trick, and the illusion faded as soon as you got into combat. Well enough people bitched about how they didn't know they could keep the item, and that they had already turned in the quest, so of course it got nerfed and eventually taken out of the game. That kind of really unproductive, gradual "fun killing" is why I don't play a lot of the games that I used to.

Quaid_sl said:

Troy, you working on Pantheon?

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I wish. Nope

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

EQ2 would create another instance of a zone if that zone's max population was reached.

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No thank you. I'd rather a system that has the players looking for alternate solutions or having patience when they don't get what they want the first time. I'd rather go to a dungeon, realize it's full, and either use my social skills to work my way (or my groups way) into a free area, or go find something else to do. When the camp my group wanted was taken in EQ, we weren't so entitled as to think the game owed us a second version of that camp. We simply found something else to do, and were rewarded with creativity as we'd often find something to kill that others couldn't or thought they shouldn't, like killing ogre guards or something.

The attitude of the game being sorry you didn't have the exact right place you wanted to exp and creating another at your convenience is starting down a bad path... that leads to things like:

Also, I'd like to see some faction missions (quests) be instanced. These missions could yield faction bonuses plus points you could spend on gear, but they'd be a slow way to grind out XP and loot.

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Why would any of this be necessary other than convenience for a single player? Which remember, is evil.

popsicledeath_sl said:

No thank you. I'd rather a system that has the players looking for alternate solutions or having patience when they don't get what they want the first time. I'd rather go to a dungeon, realize it's full, and either use my social skills to work my way (or my groups way) into a free area, or go find something else to do. When the camp my group wanted was taken in EQ, we weren't so entitled as to think the game owed us a second version of that camp. We simply found something else to do, and were rewarded with creativity as we'd often find something to kill that others couldn't or thought they shouldn't, like killing ogre guards or something.

The attitude of the game being sorry you didn't have the exact right place you wanted to exp and creating another at your convenience is starting down a bad path... that leads to things like:



Why would any of this be necessary other than convenience for a single player? Which remember, is evil.

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Amen brother! Mistmoore castle was something my guild/group stumbled on as an awesome XP area to grind AA's when a lot of the other places were full. We rarely saw people there. People also mentioned the far away zones that people didn't want to run to. Well those areas supported groups too. Just gotta be creative.

Bruman_sl said:

As a monk on live and P99, yes - pulling is tons of fun (for the puller).

However, as a mechanic, I'd agree with Draegan that it's dumb. Why do the other creatures happily stand around when their camp is being attacked, that they can plainly see?

I'd be fine with seeing it go the way of the dodo, along with things like static spawns and respawn timers and such - if it was replaced with a more compelling mechanic that helped the world actually feel alive.

That said - I'm also 100% fine if this is not the game for that type of forward-thinking outside-the-box direction. I'll split that shit for you, just give me a FD button.

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Why do humans stand around in PvP or even run away when their friends are getting attacked which they can plainly see? I understand the point about certain situations (a large room filled with mobs and nothing attacks you as you systematically single pull and kill all their comrades) but seriously, you have to suspend a certain amount of disbelief to play a video game. Just because you don't feel like a wild animal would sit tight while its friends are being beaten to shit doesn't mean you're correct in every situation. If an entire room aggros me the second I step foot in it that is just plain not fun unless the mobs are so weak and prone to CC that it's not a death sentence. And if they are that weak and easy to kill it's really just half a dozen on one hand (split pulling) and 6 on the other (weak as shit easy to kill rooms full of baddies)

Flipmode_sl said:

Not to keep harping on EQOA but they should consider a class mastery system. It worked GREAT in that game. I never played EQ1 much but EQOA shared a lot in common with it and may have done a couple things better (that system being one of them).

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How was the first-person view in EQOA? I never tried the game, so am not sure.

@Quaid. Next time roll a puller: monk/bard. EQ classes worked with diff psych profiles: ADHD? Bard/Monk. Megalomaniac? Warrior. Unloved as a child/Need to be loved now? Cleric. Hate people? Necro..

@Draegen. Pulling works, stop suggesting unwieldy, stupid fixes to proven mechanics. Also, why do you hate tv?

@FlyingMountPeople. I'd be cool with no flying mounts ever but take away druid ports and give them a flying form (raven or whatever). Makes Wiz and Dru more unique and if someone really digs flying they can just roll a Druid.

@1stPerson and bobbing lev. Makes me hurl like a wasted frat boy. No.no.no.

Dumar_sl said:

I don't mind if they remove pulling for smarter mob AI. However, pulling is preferred over WoW, which doesn't have pulling, or CC (no longer), or anything in place of it but mowing down group after group of mobs.

Brad said pulling was an accident. That's fine, but it was a good accident for its time. There has to be mechanics that require strategy when facing more than one mob.

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I think the best direction is designing a game where you CC first, then engage. Give more classes pre-combat CC tools. Your enchanter can mez a mob, sure. But your rogue can lock one down pre-pull. Your wizards has a magic cage or whatever on long cooldown or that's out of combat only. Your shaman can root. Etc. Make many/most of the pre-combat abilities. You then have combat designed where you come to a group of mobs, plan an attack, pick targets, synchronize your watches, execute cc (including which mob the tank will grab), and now you've got to kill them in order, deal with any early breaks, and are on the clock to kill them before they're all free from mez.

There were plenty of situations in Vanguard that went down like this, and it wasn't dumbed down or too easy. It took far more coordination since more players were involved than simply huddling together waiting for the monk to bring a single mob. Which was the not-the-greatest-mechanic in EQ. When your tank pulled 4 mobs and your enchanter had to scrabble to CC them, it was fine. When someone was trying to lull knowing it had a chance to resist and bring multiple mobs, things were fine. The only type of pulling I think that needs eliminated is the kind where you bring a single mob, then scamper off to bring another, because that makes it too easy for a group to just stand there camping one spot bored until they have to tackle a single mob which is also boring.

Get more people involved. Make it so you're moving to the next set of mobs. Make it so you've got things you have to pay attention to, like kill speed and cc breaks and order of kills. Seems like more fun, more challenge, more cooperation, more movement. More of everything that wasn't good about the monk-FD-pulling-single-mobs syndrome as the rest of the group waits bored.

Oh god... please do not make CC like it was in WoW. You really want CC to work like that? It sounds terrible. Why should I only be able to "magically cage" something when it's "out of combat".