Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Quaid · Jan 11, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
Putting him on ignore is not a stretch goal. Its a priority.

Look at this jabroni.

Laid the smack down so hard that he has to put me on ignore, then still cries about it 5 pages and 24 hours later.

If ya smelllllllll

shabushabu · Jan 11, 2014

Convo_sl said:
I hope it's in. Not because I'm a huge crafter but I just see the value in it. Especially if we get back to the days of bag space mini games and such.

/signed... crafting should be in early IMO ( not such far stretch goal ).. vanguard crafting would be WIN.

Troy_Costisick_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Caliane_sl said:
DnDonline totally did have int rogues... unfortunately, as he notes. they were generally not all that welcome. as str/damage rogues killed things faster, and all the lockpicking, debuffs, stealth, traps, etc were easily handled by wands and spells that do the same thing.

As he says, progress is always tied to enemy hp.
And when there ARE uses for out of combat skills, almost invariably there are alternatives to access that content.

I hope that Pantheon can take a more holistic look at things. Lock Picking, Tracking, Trap Disarming, Foraging, Diplomacy, etc. should all be valued. Not just Atk.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

TragedyAnn_sl said:
Yes. Totally agree. I'm not a big crafter either. I think it's important to community and economy in game. BUT I will say I'd rather have it done well rather than just thrown in as an after thought. If that means waiting longer for it, cool.

Agreed.. They have enough experience behind them to come up with a cool crafting system. If they make it a stretch goal I would think it's because they know players will pour money into this one. Crafters are an unique bunch=p

I'm even curious how the trade system will work.. I really dislike AH's

Quaid · Jan 11, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
I suppose as long as all roles they want in their game are defined, extra classes that fill those roles differently and possibly have a different set of the generally available utilities are no big deal. It's not like Berserkers (up until I quit) brought anything really new to the table, and beastlords while more interesting were a variation on shaman.

You know that's what GW2's take on weapon skills was, right? They took it one step further and asked themselves how a ranger would use a sword differently from a warrior and that's what they build into their game. I liked it, but their overall variety of selectable skills (the right half of the skill bar) was just weak compared to GW1.

And honestly I wouldnt mind something like that here. PoE does the same, some skills only work with certain weapons because of the very nature of the skill. Puncture is fine with a spear or dagger, try piercing someone with a great maul though? ...Stunning bash with a hammer or mace but not with a rapier, etc. A weapon should not automatically force 5 specific skills on you and that's it though. Instead, have some base abilities that really only do damage, and you raise weapon skill you get choices of more skills to build YOUR character (no respecs but you can spend higher points to buy a lower one if you must). Put some persistance and personality into character development here, I dont want everything to be interchangeable.

In the same vein, meaningful racials please. And yea its ok if the ogre has a tanking edge over the halfling because he's a fucking ogre. I'm sure the halfling gets his time to shine when someone needs grubs foraged.

The system I propose is almost nothing like GW2. In GW2 weapons were restricted based on class, and granted different abilities, also based on class. In my system, every class can wield every weapon type, and those weapons grant each individual the same 'skills', regardless of class.

And I'm not sure what your point is with the berserker + beast lord stuff... They were classes that filled no role in EQ at all. They were terribly implemented.

Player abilities should be crafted in such a way that they solve problems proposed by the game. All problems should be solvable with currently available classes. Thus, if you want to add a new class, you also have to add a new problem to solve at the same time. Otherwise, the class is pointless to gameplay.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
Could have FD on hunters, it's been done before!

But different mobs reacting in different ways to FD would be a fine tuning point, because it's dev discretion at any step of the way. As Enchanter half your spellbook was switching back and forth between overpowered, obselete, or intentionally disabled *every* expansion. So it's not like that is a new solution. Maybe have everyone at a baseline FD resist of 10% and ogres/trolls go up 10% per consecutive FD while erudites go up 50% per FD.

That's what I'm talking about man.. solutions not ridding features. That's what got us all these shitty games. Get rid of shit is the easy way out but it leaves a void in the game the more you do it. Think about all the shit that was in EQ that other games have gotten rid of. Thats why we feel the way we do about these newer games.. They have no soul!! ha

TragedyAnn_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
In the same vein, meaningful racials please. And yea its ok if the ogre has a tanking edge over the halfling because he's a fucking ogre. I'm sure the halfling gets his time to shine when someone needs grubs foraged.

Yea, I like the idea of race mattering again. When you actually need to think about your race/class combo.
I hope there's good racial lore too. I played EQ late, so late, but one of my favorite things that I can recall was doing the Drakkin racial quest line for my racial ability. You learn where "you" came from and it helps you feel more attached to the character you're playing.

Caliane · Jan 11, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
In the same vein, meaningful racials please. And yea its ok if the ogre has a tanking edge over the halfling because he's a fucking ogre. I'm sure the halfling gets his time to shine when someone needs grubs foraged.

That is fucking stupid. Making design choices where one race is the flat out correct choice is wrong.

In this case, the correct way, would be to make each have unique advantages. Ogre, has blunt damage reduction presumably. more hp. And possibly a larger hitbox/collision to prevent targets from getting around him.

How can we balance that? well, no one would want actively engage the ogre directly. So he should have problems generating threat. halfling though?! kill that fucker! high threat generation. small size? 50% evade/miss. Maybe hes faster as well. 10% move speed. So this little guy can now move faster, generate threat faster, and avoid hits. he is much more effective at picking up attackers on allies, as well as grabbing aoe aggro.
And yeah. an ogre and halfling should need to spec and build their same class differently, due to those racial variances.

The key then is to also make sure all your content does not favor any one particularly too much. Having a race/class that is good at picking up adds, then having every single "boss" a pure tank and spank, destroys your class design, and puts it all right back on the one correct class/race choice.

this is the same problem we were talking about str/dps rogues. even if you put skill rogues int he game, if the entire game is built on dps=win. then building your rogue as anything but dps is wrong.

Merlin_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Caliane_sl said:
That is fucking stupid. Making design choices where one race is the flat out correct choice is wrong.

Its not making one class the "correct" or perfect choice. Its making one class better then the others at a specific skill. Clerics heal better then any other class, wizzys do more damage then any other class etc....Every class had a balancer so to speak. Clerics great healing was offset by low dps, wizzys huge dps was offset by being squishy etc...The EQ classes were very well balanced. And to this day, not a single game has found a way to improve on that.

TragedyAnn_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Caliane_sl said:
That is fucking stupid. Making design choices where one race is the flat out correct choice is wrong.

In this case, the correct way, would be to make each have unique advantages. Ogre, has blunt damage reduction presumably. more hp. And possibly a larger hitbox/collision to prevent targets from getting around him.

How can we balance that? well, no one would want actively engage the ogre directly. So he should have problems generating threat. halfling though?! kill that fucker! high threat generation. small size? 50% evade/miss. Maybe hes faster as well. 10% move speed. So this little guy can now move faster, generate threat faster, and avoid hits. he is much more effective at picking up attackers on allies, as well as grabbing aoe aggro.
And yeah. an ogre and halfling should need to spec and build their same class differently, due to those racial variances.

The key then is to also make sure all your content does not favor any one particularly too much. Having a race/class that is good at picking up adds, then having every single "boss" a pure tank and spank, destroys your class design, and puts it all right back on the one correct class/race choice.

this is the same problem we were talking about str/dps rogues. even if you put skill rogues int he game, if the entire game is built on dps=win. then building your rogue as anything but dps is wrong.

Give the player the choice of which race/class combo they choose.
But if I make a teeny lil fae warrior, know that one hit and I'm toast. I guess that could make for challenging game-play... trying to avoid being hit.

zzeris · Jan 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
It has never made sense to me that a class' role be 'pure DPS'. I'm of the mind that there should be primary roles (dmg mitigation, hp replenishment, buffing, CC, debuffing) and that every class should be capable of dealing pretty much equal DPS.

Anyway, under my ideal system there would be 10 classes, and groups would consist of 5 individuals:

Warrior + Spellbreaker (dmg mitigation)
Priest + Druid (HP replenishment)
Shaman + Summoner (debuffs)
Bard + Knight (buffs)
Wizard + Assassins (CC)

These classes would all come with a set of abilities that helped them fulfill their primary group functions and tools to promote player interaction, but have no DPS abilities. Those all come from weapons and any class can wield anything. All classes would pretty much have equal top DPS potential in group situations, it's their class abilities that would define them.

I really like this idea. Make DPS about the same for everyone and allow for versatile skills and abilities to define your class. You aren't a wizard and your primary reason is quick burst damage and ports. Let's add some damn versatility. You are not a monk and your only reason for existence is to make content easy as fuck for lazy asses(the rest of the party who are constantly tagging out for a 'shit break'). Give the class some real use in a party.

I don't understand how anyone could defend feign pulling and bitch about hard content at the same time. Feign pulling was a skill that once learned, didn't get much harder and I played feign classes. It sure as hell wasn't hard for the rest of the party. It trivialized content. There is no argument on that fact. It trivialized content. It didn't add another aspect to the game. It reduced the fear, intensity, randomness, and FUN of the game itself. If you like to just shit around for a few hours with your friends, then just do easy content. Be honest about your goal. Don't act like feign pulling was anything but an exploit to give value to certain classes and allow you to fuck off while getting exp.

I disagree with one top healer, one top tank, etc. Raids didn't want the healers who did a bit more DPS. Fuck, they were needing HEALERS not some part time hybrid invalid. They needed mitigation and health on the meat shields. They didn't need the guy who could throw a few spells out there or who could track wild animals. WOO HOO! WE got a tank that can track! Put him at the fucking front of the raid cause it's all downhill from here on out! Make heals all similar or like EQ2 where they had shields, heals, HOTs, etc. Don't gimp classes because the monks need love, the warriors need love, or the clerics CAN'T do anything but fucking heal. Learn something new dumbasses.

Nobody_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
Its not making one class the "correct" or perfect choice. Its making one class better then the others at a specific skill. Clerics heal better then any other class, wizzys do more damage then any other class etc....Every class had a balancer so to speak. Clerics great healing was offset by low dps, wizzys huge dps was offset by being squishy etc...The EQ classes were very well balanced. And to this day, not a single game has found a way to improve on that.

Right, but he was talking about races, not classes.

I'm not sure I entirely agree though. Ogres were, for all intents and purposes, the "best" tanks in EQ. Mega stamina, strength, and no stun from the front. And yet, you saw more than Ogre warriors. I think there's a lot of people that simply don't min max to that level. For example, why would anyone pick a Human wizzy, when Erudites are obviously the superior choice? Well, because they want to I guess.

Quineloe · Jan 11, 2014

What's the point of putting someone on ignore who has almost 200 posts in this thread? he's being quoted over and over, so you might as well not read the thread either.

Last page, 15 out of 40 posts involved him.

Not taking any sides here, I don't even know who posts what.

gogojira_sl · Jan 11, 2014

Jimbolini_sl said:
Gogojira: Thanks for all the updates, you are a fast !@#$% when it comes to them.

Too much time on Internet I guess.

Caliane · Jan 11, 2014

Nobody_sl said:
Right, but he was talking about races, not classes.

I'm not sure I entirely agree though. Ogres were, for all intents and purposes, the "best" tanks in EQ. Mega stamina, strength, and no stun from the front. And yet, you saw more than Ogre warriors. I think there's a lot of people that simply don't min max to that level. For example, why would anyone pick a Human wizzy, when Erudites are obviously the superior choice? Well, because they want to I guess.

and when that happens, its almost entirely because when the player made their character in the first place, they didn't know what the games end game mechanics were. so didn't know they were making a wrong choice.
and then 40+ levels later. they are forced to either abandon their character with the time invested in it. or live with the mistake.

I mean, look at neverwinter recently. game doesn't tell you human rogue is best. Its not even clear until you start breaking down the games mechanics. And then, its not clear STR is the best stat for them, and dex kindof sucks. in fact game lies to you and says DEX is best.
But at the end, after leveling, or browsing forums for the breakdowns, you have to decide, is the +/- worth starting over.

how can you guys play games and not be well aware, when there is one correct choice, all others become invalidated?
Were there feral druids and balance druids running around in WoW? sure. were they retarded? Definitely. remember all those feral druid tanks in molten core/bwl? right? no?
admittedly this is shifting to classes.
With classes at least you can presumably swap to a desired spec/role.

zzeris · Jan 11, 2014

Convo_sl said:

I'm so glad someone has finally allowed the possum race into MMOs! And they get to be the amazing FD pulling class who can now wear armor! Thank you Brad! This is amazing news and FD pulling has now been vindicated as an awesome addition to gaming!

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
I'm so glad someone has finally allowed the possum race into MMOs! And they get to be the amazing FD pulling class who can now wear armor! Thank you Brad! This is amazing news and FD pulling has now been vindicated as an awesome addition to gaming!

we moved on...

zzeris · Jan 11, 2014

Lol, but what was I going to do with those cute pics Convo? Waste not want not my friend.

Mr Creed · Jan 11, 2014

Quaid_sl said:
And I'm not sure what your point is with the berserker + beast lord stuff... They were classes that filled no role in EQ at all. They were terribly implemented.

Player abilities should be crafted in such a way that they solve problems proposed by the game. All problems should be solvable with currently available classes. Thus, if you want to add a new class, you also have to add a new problem to solve at the same time. Otherwise, the class is pointless to gameplay.

The point was that once you have your questions and set up roles to answer them, you can make more then one class that answers one of those questions. You do not need to add a new question just because you add a new class.

Someone might want to play a CC class, but historically the CC classes are gayT so he doesnt. Make an Ice mage that CCs by freezing people instead of blowing purple dust at them and that player go for it, add/remove abilities from the utility available to make that class unique in some other ways. That's essentially what they did for beastlord, pet class without having to wear a dress. We were talking about stretch goal classes, so obviously the class lineup must work without them.

Of course, the way you worded it means you are right, the class IS pointless to gameplay. So is a 2nd/third healer or more then 1 dps class though, the others are just more flavors of the same thing. Mage is just a necro where the gimmick is summoning instead death, with different utility to match the flavor.

Caliane_sl said:
That is fucking stupid. Making design choices where one race is the flat out correct choice is wrong.

In this case, the correct way, would be to make each have unique advantages.

I meant to say that, but phrasing it as a joke about foraging was not exactly clear as day, so excuse that. I do mean different advantages, not one being flat out better at everything. Wanting racials that arent worthless will also mean that the community will declare some 'the way' and the other races are automagically worthless in every aspect, even the niche they actually shine in. But the community does that with everything so I've just come to accept it. Stuff like having a Paladin tank shrooms for your group while upper seb talks about knights being worthless shit tanks dulls you to those arguments.

Convo · Jan 11, 2014

zzeris_sl said:
Lol, but what was I going to do with those cute pics Convo? Waste not want not my friend.

That is very true. lets move the conversation to this thread..Feign Death pulling :: EverQuest :: ZAM=P

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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