Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
and when that happens, its almost entirely because when the player made their character in the first place, they didn't know what the games end game mechanics were. so didn't know they were making a wrong choice.
and then 40+ levels later. they are forced to either abandon their character with the time invested in it. or live with the mistake.

I mean, look at neverwinter recently. game doesn't tell you human rogue is best. Its not even clear until you start breaking down the games mechanics. And then, its not clear STR is the best stat for them, and dex kindof sucks. in fact game lies to you and says DEX is best.
But at the end, after leveling, or browsing forums for the breakdowns, you have to decide, is the +/- worth starting over.

how can you guys play games and not be well aware, when there is one correct choice, all others become invalidated?
Were there feral druids and balance druids running around in WoW? sure. were they retarded? Definitely. remember all those feral druid tanks in molten core/bwl? right? no?
admittedly this is shifting to classes.
With classes at least you can presumably swap to a desired spec/role.
no role spec-ing and swapping, please...
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
It is not actually that far from EQ he needs to remake.

Everyone and their dog knows what things were broken in EQ, and many people understand the principles of what made EQ so addictive in it's gameplay and caught people's attention and lives for years.

To do list from EQ

1) Re-create the sense of "gamble" to the game. Rare named mobs with rare highly sought after drops that either create A) higher utility (fishbone earring, levi cloak, dark elf mask, circlet of shadow, Holgresh beads, ect...) B) higher then normal power such as the top end weapons and straight stats armor provide and C) Power increasing items that affect downtime/regen/haste (FBSS, Regen BP's, Mana regen increasers, ect...). These types of items that people have to try and try again to get can be put into community dungeons but they can also easily be added to rare mobs in instanced dungeons such as the flute and mount drops in Undead Strat.

2) A death penalty. You need a sense of danger and the chance of loss to create the above gamble and stop people from just mindlessly blundering into dungeons and ramming their heads against the content with no chance of loss but with the chance of gain.

3) Higher end loot in social (group and raid) content. The better items should be in the dungeons and off of the raid mobs. There should not be getting near/at raid level loot from using badges or some other such crap.

4) Maintain travel requirements. No insta-travel all across the world. Have special classes and occasional warp points such as EQ provided but work to maintain challenge in travel and create a sense of scale to the world.

5) Isolated racial starting areas. Maintain racial starting areas and do not allow warping your Gnome to the Dark Elf city to group with your friend with ease. If that friend wants to travel the world to get to the Dark Elf city it should be a challenging journey as it was in EQ and seeing a gnome at the Dark Elf city early in the game should create a sense of wonder knowing what that person went through to get there.

6) Significant level curve/exp requirements. These are needed to prolong the life of a game and ensure that the bulk of the playerbase does not eat through content inside of 2 weeks of play and thus quit the game.

7) Community dungeon and raid content. Not exclusively community, there should be instanced content as well, but much like original WOW there should be things like the world dragons that guilds can compete for and some very large community dungeons where you can run into other adventurers not in your own party.

Things EQ did that should be avoided.

1) Significant out of combat downtime. There is no way a person should be meditating for 5 minutes to get to full mana or waiting 10 minutes for their 600 hitpoints to go up 2 points per a tick every 6 seconds until they are back to full health. There should be mana drinks that recharge mana quickly and bandages that heal quickly when out of combat.

2) Hidden quests. While the "talking to a NPC" way of stumbling into quests worked in EQ it is outdated and should never be repeated. There should be some visual sign that a NPC has a quest. Perhaps not a big goofy question mark above their head and instead a slight pulsing glow that lets you know they are a NPC of interest and not just scenery.

3) Quest rewards being loot only. Experience should be rewarded for a complete quest. Furthermore things like AA point type advances can also be added to quests.

4) Zoned outdoor world. The world in a new EQ-like game should most definitely not be zoned or instanced and should instead be un-zoned and un-instanced.

5) Merchant bought spells and skill advances. After the very early levels the power increases should be obtained from the adventuring and questing in the world, spells should be found in dungeons in libraries, skills should be learned via fighting a certain mob-type or finding some hermit at the top of a mountain and doing a quest for him.

6) Soloability for all classes. While grouping should be encouraged through better loot, higher exp rates, and other such boosts all classes should be able to solo much of the content in the game to gain experience with minimal downtime to make the game more accessible to newer players and allow shorter play periods to be productive without the need to find a group and get to a dungeon.
************************************************** *****

By in large keeping the things that were good about EQ and made it so addicting while getting rid of the few obviously broken things such as the regen rates/downtime, lack of ability to solo as many of the classes, ect... and maintaining many of the things that made EQ such a draw that now lack in newer MMORPG's (WOW initially actually had far more of the things that made EQ great such as un-instanced raid mobs, rare loot in some dungeons, a relatively reasonable length exp curve, ect... and those things helped it in it's initial success).
We need more Tropics! I agree with a lot of this old post=P . Figured I'd bump it up since he/she? doesn't post a whole lot
 

Nobody_sl

shitlord
80
0
and when that happens, its almost entirely because when the player made their character in the first place, they didn't know what the games end game mechanics were. so didn't know they were making a wrong choice.
and then 40+ levels later. they are forced to either abandon their character with the time invested in it. or live with the mistake.

I mean, look at neverwinter recently. game doesn't tell you human rogue is best. Its not even clear until you start breaking down the games mechanics. And then, its not clear STR is the best stat for them, and dex kindof sucks. in fact game lies to you and says DEX is best.
But at the end, after leveling, or browsing forums for the breakdowns, you have to decide, is the +/- worth starting over.

how can you guys play games and not be well aware, when there is one correct choice, all others become invalidated?
Were there feral druids and balance druids running around in WoW? sure. were they retarded? Definitely. remember all those feral druid tanks in molten core/bwl? right? no?
admittedly this is shifting to classes.
With classes at least you can presumably swap to a desired spec/role.
There's a big difference in what you consider a "correct" choice, and what I consider a "correct" choice. The correct choice for me might be an erudite paladin, because I like the lore and how they look. Will I be a top tier raider? Probably not. Will I get made fun of? More than likely. But I'll be happy with my character, and that's the most "correct" choice there is...
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,573
7,889
Just let every class be any race. Sell 'potions of race change' for $20 and be done with it.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
and when that happens, its almost entirely because when the player made their character in the first place, they didn't know what the games end game mechanics were. so didn't know they were making a wrong choice.
and then 40+ levels later. they are forced to either abandon their character with the time invested in it. or live with the mistake.

I mean, look at neverwinter recently. game doesn't tell you human rogue is best. Its not even clear until you start breaking down the games mechanics. And then, its not clear STR is the best stat for them, and dex kindof sucks. in fact game lies to you and says DEX is best.
But at the end, after leveling, or browsing forums for the breakdowns, you have to decide, is the +/- worth starting over.

how can you guys play games and not be well aware, when there is one correct choice, all others become invalidated?
Were there feral druids and balance druids running around in WoW? sure. were they retarded? Definitely. remember all those feral druid tanks in molten core/bwl? right? no?
admittedly this is shifting to classes.
With classes at least you can presumably swap to a desired spec/role.
I have to say, notsureifserious.gif

When I made my enchanter to start on a fresh server I intentionally and knowingly picked a deity and put all points in cha (which at the time was against common opinion). Technically a character creation mistake. It mattered fuck-all for the next 4 years. And I think that goes for most character creation mistakes in EQ, if not all. They wanted to play a dark elf cleric instead of a dorf. It's a retarded choice because dorf > * but who am I to argue if they like it. As long as they play their role well (and now look back, all dorf clerics were the serious type and the various elves were housewives and stoners, right?).

I dont know about Neverwinter cuz I only got to like level 8, but if its closer to the tabletop game maybe the starting stats have a higher importance compared to leveling and gear?
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
What's the point of putting someone on ignore who has almost 200 posts in this thread? he's being quoted over and over, so you might as well not read the thread either.

Last page, 15 out of 40 posts involved him.

Not taking any sides here, I don't even know who posts what.
Quaid is just trolling this thread at this point. Why? Well apparently he got his panties into a bunch because in NTOV his shitty guild with shitty pullers made him wait 20 minutes so his beer went stale or maybe they made him spill his beer when they shouted "incoming" in chat - not clear on which: could you clarify that for us Quaid? So ever since then he cries like a bitch about monk pulling when he thinks of that stale and/or spilled beer so when it came up in this thread he made incoherent arguments that no one gave a shit about but now he just sits and trolls people by asking for microtransactions and classs/raceswitching.

So yeah, I could see why someone would put him on ignore after 200 pages.

Anyway as for FD, its easy enough to come up with stronger lore for it (Jedi Monks), it gives the monk a unique flavor and it works. It is not particularly OP as you still need mez, good tanks and healers if the monk screws up and pulls a pack of 5 ravenous giant cockroaches to the group. Bards tend to do most of the pulling on raids these days anyway. And modern raids/dungeons tend to be less camp/pull dungeons and more run through dungeons - and I don't see that changing much for Pantheon. So everyone bitching about monk pulling is either (a) lost in the past, (b) blind to the present state of dungeons/bards or (c) a whiny bitch crying over stale and/or spilled beer.

/aside
Speaking of unique flavors for the monk - I did love the VG monk's might leap and would like to see that back as a monk ability.
 

Mur_sl

shitlord
234
0
Agree, as much as it might piss of a few people, focus on PvE. If you need to do PvP, make a PvP server, and say there ya go. No balancing for PvP ever.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
But different mobs reacting in different ways to FD would be a fine tuning point, because it's dev discretion at any step of the way. As Enchanter half your spellbook was switching back and forth between overpowered, obselete, or intentionally disabled *every* expansion. So it's not like that is a new solution. Maybe have everyone at a baseline FD resist of 10% and ogres/trolls go up 10% per consecutive FD while erudites go up 50% per FD.
smile.png
No - that just subjects the monk to a mean RNG which is never good. As I said, better to think of it as Jedi Mind Tricks (or Psychic Neuralizer) than Human Opposum. You can keep using the JMT/Neuralizer and they'll keep forgetting you're there.

Though I'm fine with a class of mobs (undead spring to mind) being immune to FD (or ES if we're going the Jedi Monk route). But if you make undead immune to monk FD then you have to fiddle with Necro/SK FD so it doesn't become better than Monk FD (Necro/SK would get a different skill Feign Undeath that maybe didn't work against animals or whatever).

I'm not against mucking around with the mechanic, but I am against making it worthless (such as the subject to the RNG as you describe) or taking it away.

As noted, a key metric for whether a class is "good" in EQ and VG is whether the class is "unique". FD is one of the defining characteristics of the EQ/VG monk.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
14,715
10,295
no role spec-ing and swapping, please...
it made me wonder when I said it.

Swapping is of course a reaction to limited raid/party slots in dungeons. as well as the trinity design. It was intended to let people who were not specced healer/tank outside of those dungeons, swap to the needed role in them.
however, problems arose from this. players trying to gear up for 2 specs. Players not really being super skilled at any one spec. players bored to tears of the forced for party spec.
Its definitely something that needs to be addressed in the beginning. tanking needs to be fun and viable in and out of parties. and same with healing. And at the same time, I would recommend a game design that encourages alts, so if you do get bored with a role. starting a new character is viable, and you are not effectively months/years behind in progression when you do.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
19,097
75,821
And modern raids/dungeons tend to be less camp/pull dungeons and more run through dungeons - and I don't see that changing much for Pantheon. So everyonesalivating and hoping formonk pulling is either (a) lost in the past, (b) blind to the present state of dungeons/bards or (c) a whiny bitch crying over stale and/or spilled beer.
FiFY.
 

Mur_sl

shitlord
234
0
/rant on

I'm coming to actually hate the Oculus Rift. It started with Butler wearing one in that EQN video and before and since then it seems like every fucking thread on a new MMO has at least ten "will it support the Rift?" posts and I'm like did Oculus VR sell like 5,000,000 rifts when I wasn't looking? And since I'm pretty sure they didn't, I just assume everyone who is asking about it doesn't have one and isn't getting one anytime soon. So can we focus on getting a game that works on everyday computers that everybody already owns?

/rant off
LOL +1

I will say, that if they get first person right, and the dungeons are, (as Brad has stated), designed with that in mind, I'd be all over an Oculus. I can't tell you how many times I nearly shit myself while skulking around in the Guks in 1stP...I'd probably have passed out if I'd had Oculus at the time.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
it made me wonder when I said it.

Swapping is of course a reaction to limited raid/party slots in dungeons. as well as the trinity design.
I would say more shallow class and encounter design... but i get what you are saying. To me if classes had enough ways to affect an encounter other than fitting into 3 categories ( heal, tank dps ) you could design encounters with various ways to defeat them and thus have more options in raid/group makeup. I still like the trinity for group dynamics in general, but i would like to see a move back toward D&D where there are more categories, like trapping, Crowd Control, Silent killing, scouting,diplomacy. There are a lot of things classes were originally designed for way back when that didn't really find their way into MMOs.

A simple is example is traps. If you have trapper on a raid, perhaps you get an extra boss or get to take an easier path... I guess what I am saying is, there should be more to navigating a raid/group dungeon that whacking shit and that would make your party makeup more flexible...
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
I come back from my cheerios and grapefruit this morning to find out chivalry is not dead on rerolled! Awesome, I sure hope Quaid gave you her favor for the jousting tournament tomorrow. Good 'On Sir Zzeris. Zounds!
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
LOL +1

I will say, that if they get first person right, and the dungeons are, (as Brad has stated), designed with that in mind, I'd be all over an Oculus. I can't tell you how many times I nearly shit myself while skulking around in the Guks in 1stP...I'd probably have passed out if I'd had Oculus at the time.
I'm going to guess that playing a game with ten pounds of shit on your head is not going to be as fun as it seems, especially the third time you hit your head against the cabinet. Also, I don't think the Rift has Picture-in-Picture so how are you going to watch Superbowl XLXI while playing Pantheon in 2017?
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
Its not making one class the "correct" or perfect choice. Its making one class better then the others at a specific skill. Clerics heal better then any other class, wizzys do more damage then any other class etc....Every class had a balancer so to speak. Clerics great healing was offset by low dps, wizzys huge dps was offset by being squishy etc...The EQ classes were very well balanced. And to this day, not a single game has found a way to improve on that.
What era are you talking about man? Because it sure as shit wasn't anything up until PoP (And even in PoP). EQ was balanced like dog shit, the only reason it didn't matter is because what was important from each person was raid attendance and dedication, because there were no raid caps. In most cases, there was absolutely a "best choice" in terms of recruitment, if you already had a few Wizards for example, there were very few cases where another one was better than a Monk. Monks did more DPS thanks to their sustain, more durability, could pull and could simply tank if needed, not to mention self heal. There simply was no comparison, at all. But the point wasn't to get "the best for that slot"--the point was to get someone who could do the job and show up all the time, and was dedicated enough to grind their character (And in a group setting, it was more about fitting into the group). Having a Wizard might not have been as ideal as a Monk--as DPS, for example, but it was better than having nothing, and since you didn't really have a cap, meeting a great player meant you snagged him.

Seriously though, you actually thought Wizards did more damage than Rogues? Come on buddy, it's time to let your visions of grandeur in the past go :p . I'm sorry, but every game, I think literally all of them, has improved on EQ's balance. The only reason they feel more out of balance is because they highlight their imbalances by putting things like low population based raid caps in. (Even when EQ did have raid caps, they were fairly generous--except for some absolute top end guilds, you were usually concerned with filling the raid over getting what you wanted in terms of classes.)
 

gogojira_sl

shitlord
2,202
3
Oculus Rift currently weighs just over half a pound. It'll likely be reduced by consumer launch. If you can't handle that I'm sure the OR will bulk up the weak neck of yours.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Oculus Rift currently weighs just over half a pound. It'll likely be reduced by consumer launch. If you can't handle that I'm sure the OR will bulk up the weak neck of yours.
You're forgetting the necessity of 8 1/2 pound headphones to go along with your Rift.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Wizards lacked love in EQ:-(. Especially later on.. It was fun do drop your load at burn time but overall we fell short on sustained dps in regards to quite a few classes..