Eq was not "balanced like dogshit". Could you be more specific? What was wrong with the balance? Then you specifically use raiding as an example. Well every single class in the game participated in raids. But yes, tanks tanked, healers healed, and wizzys ROGUE'S, etc did DPS. Everyone had a defined role. What is wrong with having defined roles? And when I played we did not print out spreadsheets to analyze total DPS, so if rogues did more dps, fine? So what? I've tried a few of the newer games and the "everyone can do everything" class roles are not what I would define as "an improvement on EQ". I suppose its all a matter of opinion.What era are you talking about man? Because it sure as shit wasn't anything up until PoP (And even in PoP). EQ was balanced like dog shit, the only reason it didn't matter is because what was important from each person was raid attendance and dedication, because there were no raid caps. In most cases, there was absolutely a "best choice" in terms of recruitment, if you already had a few Wizards for example, there were very few cases where another one was better than a Monk. Monks did more DPS thanks to their sustain, more durability, could pull and could simply tank if needed, not to mention self heal. There simply was no comparison, at all. But the point wasn't to get "the best for that slot"--the point was to get someone who could do the job and show up all the time, and was dedicated enough to grind their character (And in a group setting, it was more about fitting into the group). Having a Wizard might not have been as ideal as a Monk--as DPS, for example, but it was better than having nothing, and since you didn't really have a cap, meeting a great player meant you snagged him.
Seriously though, you actually thought Wizards did more damage than Rogues? Come on buddy, it's time to let your visions of grandeur in the past go. I'm sorry, but every game, I think literally all of them, has improved on EQ's balance. The only reason they feel more out of balance is because they highlight their imbalances by putting things like low population based raid caps in. (Even when EQ did have raid caps, they were fairly generous--except for some absolute top end guilds, you were usually concerned with filling the raid over getting what you wanted in terms of classes.)
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
Balance is the shibboleth of MMO developers. Did it ever work? And did it ever make an MMO more fun after the Developers picked up the nerfbats? People need to accept that classes can't be balanced and just pick one they find fun to play.
What developers can do is give classes "something" to make them feel like unique, special snowflakes.
Now that something might be a "better than you" combat ability such as giving Warriors the best taunt and Rogues a backstab ability so they have the "highest burst dps serverwide" (you know, that is still funny ten years later).
But it could also be giving unique non-combat utility skills such as Wizard ports, Shaman-only Alchemy, etc. And recognizing that Wiz/Shaman won't have the best dps, or best slow for combat.
I suggested eliminating Druid Ports in Pantheon, never putting in flying mounts ever, and giving Druids the one and only flying form ability in the game so they could feel like unique snowflakes.. Whatever else you do: give Druids 75% the nuking power of Wizards and 60% of the healing power of a Cleric or other Healing class, that would give Druids their unique and beautiful snowflake moment as they change into a bird and fly off for parts unknown, knowing that no one else could do it.
So really: fuck balance, focus on fun classes with something that sets them out as unique.
pharmakos
soʞɐɯɹɐɥd
- 16,305
- -2,233
disagree. soloing should be difficult for all classes at first. figure out a way in the economy for late-comers to the game to catch up via getting nice loot handed to them from older players. perhaps incentivize generosity somehow so that established players get rewards for twinking out newbies. balance it carefully so it doesn't get overly abused though.Tropics_sl said:
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,792
- 664
Brad has mentioned there will be a 90-10 ratio in regards to traditional roles and then doing some stuff outside your typical role..I like that idea. This game being so close to EQN in release I think I'll appreciate the 2 different types of class setups they will offer.. I do prefer the traditional DnD class setup tho.
BilboFaggins
N00b
- 302
- 22
I completely agree. Balancing for pvp has always destroyed pve. That's one of the major issues with most MMORPGs. They always try to be everything for everybody. What you end up with in the end is a bland pile of poop that nobody likes.
To have a great game, you have to choose a direction, and stand your guns. People will tell you that you suck and that you are an idiot for not following their ideas and changing your direction, but in the end, if you hold true to your vision, you end up making the best game you could make for THAT direction rather than a middle of the road game for everybody esle's direction.
If it's a PvE game, make it PvE. If people want PvP, put them on a seperate server, and do NOT change any rules to make it better for PvP. If they want to PvP on a PvE game, make them live with the fact that some classes are going to be over powered because that is the nature of PvE.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
Every MMO needs to plan for that future when there are two few newbies in the 3-4 start zones and they need a Mines of Gloomingdeep to bring everyone together. I was never bothered by VG's Isle of Dawn having better loot than the original starting areas - it served the same purpose you're suggesting helping out newbies who are late to the game. I was bothered by the inclusion of whole new quests lines post IoD that blew the existing quest loot out of the water.
That said, there needs to be some soloing from level 1. Not as much as Beta 5 VG, but more than EQ. A few years back started a monk on EQMac (RIP) and it blew until a bunch of FoHguild folks showed up to level with. I am 100% behind the best loot and best xp requiring groups/raids, but there has to be some consistent soloing for people besides Necros/Druids.
Speakers. But my 8 pound headphones definitely sound great and my neck is incredibly strong because of it!
tad10
Elisha Dushku
- 5,534
- 601
Lol. Yeah, I must be getting old. I have zero interest in playing a game via the Rift. But more power to you and everyone who does.
I'm just incredibly fascinated by it and all the previews have me wanting to drop money on the dev unit. I'd never press the issue, specifically for a project of this scope. I just wanted a response, I swear we can drop it.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
- 25,946
- 113,041
It was balanced like dog shit because some classes were simply better than others in their defined roles, by orders of magnitude in some cases, and often without any other utility to make up for it. As I said, the only reason "everyone participated in raids" is because there were no caps on raids. The only negative to bringing more people was loot dispersion but if it was a class you were underpopulated on, it didn't matter, because their loot would be rotting anyway (Until we get to All/All).
I'm actually shocked you think your damage was anywhere near a Monk or Rogues though as a Wizard. Am I the first to break it to you that Wizards sucked at DPS, man? They did.
You predicated your statement that EQ was balanced, that's "so what". It wasn't.
What EQ did was take the light OFF of balance and put it on the player by making the goals more about dedication, patience, efficiency, risk abatement and a whole host of factors that modern MMO's don't do because they changed a lot of dynamics in their game. So EQ wasn't balanced well, the thing is, it just wasn't a game about power balance at all. That was it's key strength.
EQ made classes feel pretty amazing WITHOUT having to make them the best, is what I'm getting at. Your Wizards DPS was dog shit man--you didn't "trade" your squishiness for it, if you did, the rogues stole it off you. But that didn't really matter--because what was really important wasn't so much the class, as it was having a competent player.
If you go in with the mindset that "my class has to be best in X"--then you have a false perception of what EQ was. Heck this whole community was built off the epic whines of one person who saw that warriors were butt fucked in EVERY way outside of groups because they were supposed to be "the best tanks" and yet were easily outclassed by Monks for an entire expansion of content in terms of tanking!
EQ was balanced like shit. But it had some features that really made balance a "background" concern--and I think, if you want to get some benefits of EQ's design, it's important to address what about it's design made it so easy to forget about balance--you shouldn't start from the thought that it was just balanced perfectly, which is why no one worried about balance (Because people DID worry about balance, again, I wish I could link Furors monk rants.)
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
- 25,946
- 113,041
If you're going to "fuck balance", then you need to understand WHY you can "fuck balance". You can't just do it. Otherwise, you'll end up with a shitty game. Read the first post in the chain--that's the point I'm trying to make. There were aspects of EQ that, at least at first, took a light off balance issues. But going in with the assumption that Wizards were the best DPS and everyone was balanced snow flakes around that? No. We should at least understand what mechanics made it okay to say "fuck balance"--because EQ certainly said "fuck balance". And even then, it wasn't always okay. Again, plenty of people complained and at some points it got so ridiculous that it DID affect the game. You can't just say "fuck balance", rather you need to understand how you can make balance less of a priority and focus more on the player.
Because, for example, if EQ had a 25 man raid cap? I can ASSURE you, Merlin's view on balance would be incredibly different. (And I'm NOT advocating a raid cap..I'm illustrating how a mechanic can highlight balance issues.)
All in all though, yes, I agree that each class should augment groups, raids and even how they interact with the environment in very unique ways. So there is less emphasis on just what they can do in terms of raw numbers. BUT if that happens, then you need to be careful that you balance their unique snowflakeness in terms of stacking in raids ect. Because if the druid is a very unique snow flake for example, but you only need one--that feeling of unique snow flake won't last long.
zzeris
The Real Benny Johnson
- 21,267
- 93,051
Good post but I hope they also get some raid abilities or spells that are useful because no one really gives a shit if you can fly like the winds while they are raiding and you aren't(just an example).
How many Rangers loved the early game and realized later that they fucked up? How many wizards got tired of being a shitty mage? I hope they do a better job 'balancing' the game so everyone can at least contribute to endgame and are wanted. Because it wasn't the players that fucked up when Rangers were shit. It was the developers.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
- 11,859
- 8,265
My ability to hold aggro should be second to none. I should be able to build up such monumental amounts of aggro that the Lord Jesus Christ himself could not turn the mob off of me. I won't play second fiddle to Paladins or Knights. I don't give a fuck.
When I want aggro, I want to take it, and never give it up. As a matter of fact, I want the aggro so intense that when Im ressed and if the mob we're fighting is still alive, I want it to jump right back the fuck on me, butt ass naked while I'm still looting my corpse.
I wan't to hold aggro so dominantly that minions of the mob I killed put hit squads out to take out my family, my friends, and some of my coworkers.
I want aggro so powerful that my aggro, it has aggro of its own. Like my 'taunt button' has its own aggro. My Taunt button should have a small migrant worker built inside that is dual wielding 2 eb weapons and a suitcase nuke full of hate.
When I want aggro, I want to take it, and never give it up. As a matter of fact, I want the aggro so intense that when Im ressed and if the mob we're fighting is still alive, I want it to jump right back the fuck on me, butt ass naked while I'm still looting my corpse.
I wan't to hold aggro so dominantly that minions of the mob I killed put hit squads out to take out my family, my friends, and some of my coworkers.
I want aggro so powerful that my aggro, it has aggro of its own. Like my 'taunt button' has its own aggro. My Taunt button should have a small migrant worker built inside that is dual wielding 2 eb weapons and a suitcase nuke full of hate.
Soygen
The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
- 28,573
- 45,202
What are you sporting? These?
Including Rift support is only a positive thing. All the buzz about Rift has been very positive, so I'm not sure why you'd take issue with it being an option.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
- 11,859
- 8,265
Everytime I see someone claim monks are 'not overpowered,' I start having fits of hysterical laughter.
The most clear indicator of how overpowered monks are is when a post on monks being overpowered sneaks into "Monkly Business," and every monk that has more than 20 days played and an Epic will chime in with "Overpowered? No no, we are JUST RIGHT! Don't change a thing, k?!"
Monks are flat out 150% broken. The only reason you remain totally broken is because the lead developer of this fucking piece of fecal matter plays a monk religiously. Of course you're not going to be nerfed, you'll only get better and better as time goes by as other classes become marginalized. Soon you will have invaded on every character's territory. "Lets give em backstab by scaling their Flying Kick damage according to the pointy-ness of their shoes." "Won't rogues get pissed off?" "Fuck rogues. I want backstab. Cut the reuse time on -Escape- by 55 minutes and they'll never utter another word." "But won't that be just like..." "SILENCE FOOL!"
So don't worry about a thing. When someone comes down on monks and their clear cut state of "BROKE AS FUCK," just laugh and tell them, "you're not part of the team, fella," they'll know what you mean - if they don't, who gives a shit?
The most clear indicator of how overpowered monks are is when a post on monks being overpowered sneaks into "Monkly Business," and every monk that has more than 20 days played and an Epic will chime in with "Overpowered? No no, we are JUST RIGHT! Don't change a thing, k?!"
Monks are flat out 150% broken. The only reason you remain totally broken is because the lead developer of this fucking piece of fecal matter plays a monk religiously. Of course you're not going to be nerfed, you'll only get better and better as time goes by as other classes become marginalized. Soon you will have invaded on every character's territory. "Lets give em backstab by scaling their Flying Kick damage according to the pointy-ness of their shoes." "Won't rogues get pissed off?" "Fuck rogues. I want backstab. Cut the reuse time on -Escape- by 55 minutes and they'll never utter another word." "But won't that be just like..." "SILENCE FOOL!"
So don't worry about a thing. When someone comes down on monks and their clear cut state of "BROKE AS FUCK," just laugh and tell them, "you're not part of the team, fella," they'll know what you mean - if they don't, who gives a shit?
We had a monk team that were a bunch of primadonnas and a wizard KS team leeching XP.
EQ you had entire classes you wouldn't know people from.
Raid Leader: Grats rogue_007 on Dagger of Pointy Sharpy
Me in Cleric Channel: Is that a new recruit?
Cleric_004: No man, that is one of the officers he has been raiding with us for 3 years.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,792
- 664
Agreed and that's why I think when they design dungeons and raid content they need to be mindful of constantly changing things up to allow different classes to shine.. Hopefully those encounters won't always be noticeable at first.. There should be an easier way to do things(not in a I win button) granted you figure out the encounter but it should also be doable in a much harder way.. If you don't have the perfect setup.. EQ certainly did that but at times there were preferred classes for certain zones.. Most times there were preferred classes really. I'd hate to see that happen again because it can be avoided.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
- 11,859
- 8,265
