Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Jimbolini_sl said:

Still looking for this project to hit its goal...that being said,

It would be wise to get together with the team (and/or us) and start planning alternate route.

Example: If the project does not hit it's goal, the good news is many of us will not care and still re-pledge. Take 30-60 days between and relaunch with the mistakes corrected from before and a lower goal (Maybe 500k)..stating that this is "phase one" of the company building process. (Theykey is to get the minimum needed to begin and this will keep the word circulating.)

Just an example, but as I posted on another site...it is wise to always have a plan B.

Click to expand...

That raises a good question. I'd guess they would redo their kickstarter if it doesn't reach 800k, but it appears their people are pretty much solely invested in kickstarting and networking. Which I guess is as it should be. The problem is as Brad rightly stated, even though they are insider professionals, they are not sales or PM types. The problem is they are approaching this in a completely wrong way, and are not doing a great job of selling or marketing.

It's funny how the Kickstarter just started it's second week and everyone is already drawing up plans for attempt #2. And this is one of the problems I'm having with this whole thing. In fanboy eyes it's not possible for this to fail over the real lack of market support, it'll always get blamed on a weak kickstarter campaign.

Click to expand...

Well, given how awful the initial KS was, it's pretty easy to point to it as the current weak link. The other problem is the MMO market is saturated and they really aren't actually offering us anything revolutionary and they haven't sold us anything new. As I mentioned I think a mistake is not involving the community in the process more than just naming an item. Also, the tiers are better, but still very mediocre.

I think if the Kickstarter fails, it might actually be better for the game long term as they can take lessons learned and actually spend some time game searching and actually improving what they are offering to us. I think if it funds in it's current incarnation, it will reward a very badly managed process in an unhealthy manner.

These people are not young indy developers. They are a group of 'elite' inside gamers. Their KS should reflect this, and not look like a shoddy college project.

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

Then, you start a Twitter AND Facebook AND G+ campaign much like this one, only less cryptic and cliche. Brad writes a mea culpa about how they rushed into this and were unprepared, complete with a sincere apology to fans for not doing a better job the first time. Then he talks about all the backers they brought on board and how they truly want to make this a game for the people by the people. Next, all the videos for the Kickstarter should be shot with people showing real emotions, not reading platitudes off cue cards. .

Click to expand...

A big problem here is that it feels like his PR guy is in advertising mode, rather than pitch mode. Running a social media campaign for capital, is a very different beast from the typical advertising campaign. A typical campaign is like deep sea fishing--slowly reeling the fish in until you can net him . A social media pitch should be more like spear fishing--you get one shot, and that guy has to be on the spear once you take it or he is gone. Or to get away from bad analogies, they are treating everyone like fans who might buy a game--when they should be treating everyone like investors they need to convince.

Like I said earlier, if they look at a Nielsan survey, or really any market research, they would understand why Kickstarters rely far more on social media as opposed to big press releases. Because word of mouth from apersonalsource? Garners amassivetrust factor (And yes, a "personal" source can be from a msg board/social media--anyone with a previous, even if it's casual, relationship outside of the products market). 90% of consumers in the last survey said they'd put money down solely on the recommendation of an acquaintance. While that number drops precipitously if the information is based on an article or other news source where there is no connection to the source outside of the product itself.

Articles/News, their place is to geteyes on your product, and then that products features should lure them to more sources, which will hopefully sell them over time. But the thing with kickstarters? Is that they don't have a product or the product is not yet tangible-Brad needs to get that hedoesn't have a product. In order to sell hisfutureproduct, he's going to need recommendations from people who trust him to do what he says.

That's why in crowd funding it's SO important to sell yourself and your "dream" to people directly. You're relying on them to convince their friends in ways that articles in big game sites can't--because those articles do not have anywhere near the market influence that word of mouth does. The main power of those big game articles is that they reach so many people, so they are great for advertising--but again, Brad doesn't have a product to advertise. What he needs to do now is get people to trust him to fund his "vision". (I mean, it's not a coincidence that successful Kickstarters either use well known names, or are well known within the community--this is an absolute must for when you don't have a product that can be scrutinized.)

I guess the real problem for them is that they dont have money to continue development if the KS fails.
If it fails, i would try a 3 stage approach:
1. Do a functional prototype/prealpha with minimum staff (3 people max). Use Unity asset-store for gfx/sound. 1 small zone, 1 small dungeon, 3 classes. 3 month devtime.
2. Then do a KS for a fullblown alpha version using the prototype to get the hardcore fans to pledge (150K base, stretchgoals to get additional programming/gfx-work outsourced). Continue with the same devs, 1 year devtime.
3. KS for the full game (800k+stretchgoals), using the alpha version to show off the game and the get the needed support. Add devs as needed/as money allows. 2 years to completion.

Alpha version sould contain all game-system, content can be capped at a lower level, only 2-3 zones, 1-2 dungeons (fully done).

Perhaps if it fails they should take the approach of offering a smaller goal for a tech demo (similar to Pathfinder online) and once that gets funded, start shopping it around at tradeshows, media and then do a 2nd kickstarter. I think if they achieve the first goal to allow them to put out something tangible then I think that would get more people excited about thinking it could become a reality.

gogojira_sl said:

Pro-tip: Miracle patches are long promised, rarely delivered.

Click to expand...

You just have to wait long enough. The D3 miracle patch supposedly hits sometime in March, for a mere $40. That's only 2 years after release!

Tauro_sl said:

+1000

Release at least detailed info on classes/races/combat this week, i really dont see the point of spreading it out! Yes, you want people to follow to the KS page, but why? It should be about people coming in&pledging! Pagehits dont get it funded! Lore (history, people, different zones, dungeons, etc.) is much better suited to be spread out and not essential gameplay stuff.

Click to expand...

Because with KS you get to change your pledge before it ends. You want people to follow it, get more excited and increase their pledge.

Spynx_sl said:

I'm not sure how far behind I am, but we lost another 10k pledge.

Click to expand...

It's in your hand to fix that, just upgrade to 10k and it's even!

Actually though, can we stop cheering and bemoaning each troll pledge? Five 10k backers are less useful for the project then 100-500 backers in the "regular" range. As long as the goal is met more backers is better then fewer that paid more.

I'm almost 40 years old. Don't complain that some old man is on here because there are a lot of you about that age. Here is how it went when I started EQ in 1999.

Worked swing shift (3-11)
got home - Played EQ until 6am.
Sleep until time for work.
(repeat)for 3 years.

Here is how it works now.

get up
kids
Work - real job
kids
dinner
kids
say hi to the wife..
maybe game time for a few hours
off to bed
(repeat)

I really don't have 8-12 hours a day to commit to a game. I do want a challenge, but I don't want to be left in the rear with the gear because of that.
There are a lot of people in this age group. Maybe I shouldn't even specify AGE. We grew up with the Commodore 64, Atari, Intellivision (Tron Deadly Disks was my favorite), Nintendo, Playstation, MMORPG's. I might even die with a PS8 controller in my hand. Now we are the ones with the money, who are buying and backing games.
What I am getting at is I still want to play but is there room for someone like me that cannot dedicate a third of the day to being connected.

mkopec_sl said:

If this fails, they need to go back and get some more shit done, period. A design document, all the classes outlined and defined. Maybe even finish up a preliminary zone/dungeon to show a fly through video of. Maybe a few of the NPC monsters...etc.. Have something to show the public other than , "Hey we want to make a MMO thats oldschool"

Click to expand...

Depends on how well the ks does, they may have other options if they get say 500k-600k. The ks may fail at that level, but it might get outside investors interested. Eh, we will see.

mkopec_sl said:

Well, I was a bit further along in my life than you when I started playing EQ. I was aleady well into my career as an engineer (9-5) and I was already married and had my first kid by then. (Wife actually picked up EQ as a gift, lol) And I still played EQ when I could, not as long as you , but I still played and had fun. No, I was not bleeding edge, see but thats the thing, I did not need to be in EQ.

Click to expand...

Cockblocking was no fun in EQ but like you said, itemization was so good you did not need to be bleeding edge to have a powerful toon. You could camp rare spawn, make tons of money, buy gear etc etc, and expansions did not completely reset your efforts. In theory, resetting gear at the start of every expansion levels the playing field. In practice it makes it even harder for non power gamers to really experience the content at their own pace. When you can solo the last expansions raid bosses in dungeon gear at the new max level who cares? You might be able to see the stuff you never saw before but you aren't really experiencing it. Going back and raiding NToV even into the beginnings of PoP was worthwhile for the drops and you still needed a raid force to get it done. People still wanted Cloak of Flames even into Velious.

I was never on the leading edge, trust me. I think what stopped me from playing is when the planes came out. I missed a flag and was left behind. Never to catch up.
I just don't want the same thing to happen.
Just concerns.....

Soonami_sl said:

I'm almost 40 years old. Don't complain that some old man is on here because there are a lot of you about that age. Here is how it went when I started EQ in 1999.

Worked swing shift (3-11)
got home - Played EQ until 6am.
Sleep until time for work.
(repeat)for 3 years.

Here is how it works now.

get up
kids
Work - real job
kids
dinner
kids
say hi to the wife..
maybe game time for a few hours
off to bed
(repeat)

I really don't have 8-12 hours a day to commit to a game. I do want a challenge, but I don't want to be left in the rear with the gear because of that.
There are a lot of people in this age group. Maybe I shouldn't even specify AGE. We grew up with the Commodore 64, Atari, Intellivision (Tron Deadly Disks was my favorite), Nintendo, Playstation, MMORPG's. I might even die with a PS8 controller in my hand. Now we are the ones with the money, who are buying and backing games.
What I am getting at is I still want to play but is there room for someone like me that cannot dedicate a third of the day to being connected.

Click to expand...

I think there is. The reason I say this is because Brad mentioned an achievement system, within the leveling. So if you have 20 levels but each level has certain achievement requirements, you're more likely to feel that sense of accomplishment.. Also, the achievement system could have a mix of solo and group play tied to it. It's really an unknown at this point. I expect to mostly group but I also expect for the design to have evolved enough where getting a group won't be as hard as EQ was at times. I think the class info will help give us a better understanding of how difficult it will be to form groups. I think VG's approach made it much easier to form a group with the diversity within the class system.


I don't necessarily agree that this game is being designed for people with the most time. I just think our rewards will be less and the focus will be more on XP with the occasional piece of loot/ability. It will all be relevant to time invested but that's any game.

Soonami_sl said:

I'm almost 40 years old. Don't complain that some old man is on here because there are a lot of you about that age. Here is how it went when I started EQ in 1999.

Worked swing shift (3-11)
got home - Played EQ until 6am.
Sleep until time for work.
(repeat)for 3 years.

Here is how it works now.

get up
kids
Work - real job
kids
dinner
kids
say hi to the wife..
maybe game time for a few hours
off to bed
(repeat)

I really don't have 8-12 hours a day to commit to a game. I do want a challenge, but I don't want to be left in the rear with the gear because of that.
There are a lot of people in this age group. Maybe I shouldn't even specify AGE. We grew up with the Commodore 64, Atari, Intellivision (Tron Deadly Disks was my favorite), Nintendo, Playstation, MMORPG's. I might even die with a PS8 controller in my hand. Now we are the ones with the money, who are buying and backing games.
What I am getting at is I still want to play but is there room for someone like me that cannot dedicate a third of the day to being connected.

Click to expand...

I'm older than you slightly ,work as a sys engineer and teach a couple nights a week , have a 2 and 4 year old , 31 year old Asian wife that chatters non stop but luckily likes boob sliders and bikini chain mail in real life , so I have far less time than at any point in my PC gaming life now.

BUT I DON"T WORRY ABOUT "KEEPING UP".

Fuck that noise of designing the game to worry about me if I have one or two hours average a night to play after everyone is asleep. There's tons of shit right now for you to play if you need something that lets you immediately hop in , port anywhere you want , and level to max with a couple weeks of casual play.

Again , FUCK THAT.

If anything this game needs to not worry about that crowd. I want it to take me a year to hit whatever "max" is , and in the meantime I can drool over the hopefully rare epic equip I see from those who do have time to poop sock it.

Make the 1-3 hours nightly time (sometimes more sometimes less ) I play be in a virtual world enjoyable to just fucking run around in, whether you hopped all around and got 3 rare drops in a night or not.

Again , I'm a filthy casual in play time terms who would much prefer EQ/VG speed leveling/travel and gameplay.

Make this game about the journey , not how easy and fast I can keep up with someone who has far more playtime

(sorry for the slight rant , just the mmo/pc gaming in general genre has been worrying about making sure everyone has everything easily for the past several years , people that play more should have more in game and some games should be designed to not make welfare epics and instant world porting the norm )

Edit:

And I may be the only one to say this , but I'm ok if I don't get to see and do everything in the game. If it requires lots of playtime to be a crafter , raider, PVP'r , gatherer , explorer ,etc it's ok.

Also Soonami not meant as a direct attack on you , as you may not mean what I'm referring to , but there's going to be an outcry from folks who scream bloody murder if they have to actually travel and take time to do things in game , just wanting Brad to not cater to that is all. There's lots of games out there currently for that crowd.

Well, still waiting for that PC gamer article.

Second 'deadline' they have communicated to their fans, and have missed, so far. First was the KS campaign itself (said November) and now this article. Even if the article isn't their responsibility, clearly there was a communication breakdown somewhere between PC Gamer, Visionary Realms, and the backers.

Deeply considering dropping down to a lower pledge tier at this point.

Quaid_sl said:

Well, still waiting for that PC gamer article.

Second 'deadline' they have communicated to their fans, and have missed, so far. First was the KS campaign itself (said November) and now this article. Even if the article isn't their responsibility, clearly there was a communication breakdown somewhere between PC Gamer, Visionary Realms, and the backers.

Deeply considering dropping down to a lower pledge tier at this point.

Click to expand...

I would say keep it at current level and lower it on last day?

Jimbolini_sl said:

I would say keep it at current level and lower it on last day?

Click to expand...

Why? To pull the rug out from under it?

If Brad & team have the passion and ambition and really believe in this thing, it will get done. They'll find a way. They'd be smart to use this kickstarter as a reality check. Pressure creates diamonds, and all that.

If they don't have the fire in their bellies, then we're all better off seeing this project go away. If the market is there, we'll get our challenging MMO eventually - weather it is Brad or some indie team that picks up the reins.

Either way, stomping of fanboy feet and concern trolling is all just entertainment at this point.

Quaid_sl said:

Well, still waiting for that PC gamer article.

Second 'deadline' they have communicated to their fans, and have missed, so far. First was the KS campaign itself (said November) and now this article. Even if the article isn't their responsibility, clearly there was a communication breakdown somewhere between PC Gamer, Visionary Realms, and the backers.

Deeply considering dropping down to a lower pledge tier at this point.

Click to expand...

this has more to with pcgamer than VR. brad didn't oversleep and miss an interview that was scheduled to be conducted on the same day said article was to be published.

blame PC gamer, its editor, or the article's author in this instance. trust me, there will be an abundance of missed deadlines and broken promises in the future that we WILL be able to attribute to VR.

I bet brad lost his shit when it didn't get published, with good reason, too