It might take longer than an hour. Say, a couple days worth of adventuring. So, for a few days, the whole guild is in the desert zones hunting, socializing, and adventuring together. Sounds like fun to me.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
(got an error when trying to post the first time, so hopefully not a double post. Inc tl;dr.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance by Warhorse Studios Kickstarter
That game, since I saw it posted in this thread, has gained roughly 55.000 pounds in 3 hours. Was 70k, now it is 125k. (changed this, because when I started writing this post, it has gained roughly 20k)
It has 0 updates and a few dev posts in the comments. Pantheon has roughly 20x the amount of comments on their page.
You need updates when you have little to show. Their game don't have that much either, but their ideas and concept of the game are much more fleshed out. Lots of members on this board already know what game Brad will try to make. The Vision (TM). The core gameplay behind it is what we have been talking about for a decade now. Lost gamedesign in favor for faster and more accessible experiences. Problem is that the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of mmorpg players (who came due to and after WoW) don't know what that is.
Take Kindom Come. They quote
If you can't reference that to mmos, then use single player games. Give people a better idea of what it is. There is little doubt the kickstarter was launched too soon. We all know that art assets change, and they will, however, when you ask people to put their money up front to develop a game, they need to know what they are getting. The screenshots used, art assets from Unity that will have no resemblance to the actual game, is not the best idea. The Slash graphic for instance reminds me more of current day mmos than EQ. Very childlike and certainly not something that will appeal to the older EQ fans, and while it might not be a big deal to newer mmo players, they are lost in a "this seems generic, because I don't know the references they are talking about". Pulling in EQ and pulling in most mmos today, very different. How? Class interaction in EQ was very different than mmos today. How?
It will be hard to get people to put money towards an idea of a game that is hard/impossible to get an accurate idea of where it is from. It is not like they can say "the makers of The Longest Journey, we want to make a new game similar to that". You can go back and play that game now, and get a full understanding of what it is like. You can not do that with EQ. So, hence why I think it would be a good idea to bring comparison videos explaining some of the core concepts. "Show" something. If not it is all talk and screenshots that probably have even less accuracy of the end project than EQ alpha to release. Hell, might even be better to write "using the unity engine", then take some screenshots of games using that engine as a representative of what it can be used for. Don't use images and say that "it is subject to change". People see the screenshots and associate the game with it.
The fact that there is so much talk and comments on the Pantheon page shows that there is people who are interested and passionate about the game, as does the large thread here. But this forum and forums alone is not enough to fund the game. 1500 people backing is nothing. That's half of a regular server population. This kickstarter need to reach the people who know nothing about EQ, who know nothing about what it was like before, but might enjoy it anyways, as a new experience. It needs to cater to a niche audience who don't know that there is even a niche to fill.
If you do not have any real design documents ready now, then instead of telling what your game can do now, tell on how it will be different. This kickstarter is not to fund a game right now. It is funding an idea. Even in the first video posted, Brad mentioned that this kickstarter was the first backing run, they need this, then later there might be more kickstarters later, but there was absolute indications of need for further backing down the line. This is ok for many of us. We know the idea by Brads name alone. People on this forum know that if it gets made, Pantheon is more likely to be EQ3 than EQ Next. However, to grab new mmo players (which is needed), with a idea alone, will be very difficult. At the moment, this kickstarter is more of a "That sounds good" than "This will be good". Two very different things.
I think they need to be more daring. Risk saying how it is different from newer mmos. For instance, take WoWs design documents and compare things directly. Make comparison videos of pulling from EQ compared to pulling in WoW. You don't need art assets for that. Just play the games and make the examples for yourself. You might anger millions of people who loved the easier playstyles of WoW, but you only need a tiny fraction of the WoW market to like the ideas behind Pantheon to get funded. Only way to do that is to make them aware on how it can be, and youtube makes that task much easier by allowing you to make visual representations of newer mmo playstyles, vs EQ. Instead of just trying to type out the differences, show some of them. You can't show the "feels" of accomplishments you got from the higher risk vs rewards, but core gameplay like FD pulling, trains, class inter-dependencies (rez, summon corpse, buffs) are all things that can easily be show in comparison videos.
Will I pledge for Pantheon, yes. I am unemployed at the moment, have no disposable income, but will put a little 45 dollar pledge in next month. Most I can do at the time. I am not stupid, and know full well that the 800k will NOT fund the full game. However, I am more than willing to put some money towards even the idea of bringing some of the EQ mentality back to mmos. If only for other developers to think "shit, they got 800k for a fucking idea behind the game? Maybe we can make some changes to appeal to that audience".
EQ is dead. Not just the game, but many of the ideas behind it as well. At release, they might have been design flaws or oversights that turned into mechanics due to players working around/with the game to overcome the challenges, but those same challenges made the game what it was. After this kickstarter I doubt we will ever see the ideas again. So, if you like the ideas behind it, pledge for it. You are not just pledging for a game here, but the resurrection of a genre of mmos that have been lost.
That being said, I fully understand why some people are skeptical of this kickstarter, because it is just that. Funding an idea behind the game, not the actual game itself. The actual game will be funded elsewhere and later. Be that SOE or other things, it matters little. This is basically a kickstarter for the vision. Most of us know what that represents, problem the kickstarter has is that hardly anyone else does.
That being said
Kingdom Come: Deliverance by Warhorse Studios Kickstarter
That game, since I saw it posted in this thread, has gained roughly 55.000 pounds in 3 hours. Was 70k, now it is 125k. (changed this, because when I started writing this post, it has gained roughly 20k)
It has 0 updates and a few dev posts in the comments. Pantheon has roughly 20x the amount of comments on their page.
You need updates when you have little to show. Their game don't have that much either, but their ideas and concept of the game are much more fleshed out. Lots of members on this board already know what game Brad will try to make. The Vision (TM). The core gameplay behind it is what we have been talking about for a decade now. Lost gamedesign in favor for faster and more accessible experiences. Problem is that the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of mmorpg players (who came due to and after WoW) don't know what that is.
Take Kindom Come. They quote
Referencing older, but popular games, in order to give an idea what their mission statement is behind the game. Pantheon references Everquest. It appeals to EQ players, but there are few of them left. People who played EQ while it was popular are mostly in their 30+ now. There needs to be references to newer games. If not telling how they will be similar, the focus needs to put on what makes it different. The problem Pantheon faces is that it is building a niche game in a genre for the people who are sick of the genre. Pantheon is for the old people like many of us, and the new people who don't know at all what EQ was like, because as stated, there is little to nothing left of what made that different in any modern mmo.
If you can't reference that to mmos, then use single player games. Give people a better idea of what it is. There is little doubt the kickstarter was launched too soon. We all know that art assets change, and they will, however, when you ask people to put their money up front to develop a game, they need to know what they are getting. The screenshots used, art assets from Unity that will have no resemblance to the actual game, is not the best idea. The Slash graphic for instance reminds me more of current day mmos than EQ. Very childlike and certainly not something that will appeal to the older EQ fans, and while it might not be a big deal to newer mmo players, they are lost in a "this seems generic, because I don't know the references they are talking about". Pulling in EQ and pulling in most mmos today, very different. How? Class interaction in EQ was very different than mmos today. How?
It will be hard to get people to put money towards an idea of a game that is hard/impossible to get an accurate idea of where it is from. It is not like they can say "the makers of The Longest Journey, we want to make a new game similar to that". You can go back and play that game now, and get a full understanding of what it is like. You can not do that with EQ. So, hence why I think it would be a good idea to bring comparison videos explaining some of the core concepts. "Show" something. If not it is all talk and screenshots that probably have even less accuracy of the end project than EQ alpha to release. Hell, might even be better to write "using the unity engine", then take some screenshots of games using that engine as a representative of what it can be used for. Don't use images and say that "it is subject to change". People see the screenshots and associate the game with it.
The fact that there is so much talk and comments on the Pantheon page shows that there is people who are interested and passionate about the game, as does the large thread here. But this forum and forums alone is not enough to fund the game. 1500 people backing is nothing. That's half of a regular server population. This kickstarter need to reach the people who know nothing about EQ, who know nothing about what it was like before, but might enjoy it anyways, as a new experience. It needs to cater to a niche audience who don't know that there is even a niche to fill.
If you do not have any real design documents ready now, then instead of telling what your game can do now, tell on how it will be different. This kickstarter is not to fund a game right now. It is funding an idea. Even in the first video posted, Brad mentioned that this kickstarter was the first backing run, they need this, then later there might be more kickstarters later, but there was absolute indications of need for further backing down the line. This is ok for many of us. We know the idea by Brads name alone. People on this forum know that if it gets made, Pantheon is more likely to be EQ3 than EQ Next. However, to grab new mmo players (which is needed), with a idea alone, will be very difficult. At the moment, this kickstarter is more of a "That sounds good" than "This will be good". Two very different things.
I think they need to be more daring. Risk saying how it is different from newer mmos. For instance, take WoWs design documents and compare things directly. Make comparison videos of pulling from EQ compared to pulling in WoW. You don't need art assets for that. Just play the games and make the examples for yourself. You might anger millions of people who loved the easier playstyles of WoW, but you only need a tiny fraction of the WoW market to like the ideas behind Pantheon to get funded. Only way to do that is to make them aware on how it can be, and youtube makes that task much easier by allowing you to make visual representations of newer mmo playstyles, vs EQ. Instead of just trying to type out the differences, show some of them. You can't show the "feels" of accomplishments you got from the higher risk vs rewards, but core gameplay like FD pulling, trains, class inter-dependencies (rez, summon corpse, buffs) are all things that can easily be show in comparison videos.
Will I pledge for Pantheon, yes. I am unemployed at the moment, have no disposable income, but will put a little 45 dollar pledge in next month. Most I can do at the time. I am not stupid, and know full well that the 800k will NOT fund the full game. However, I am more than willing to put some money towards even the idea of bringing some of the EQ mentality back to mmos. If only for other developers to think "shit, they got 800k for a fucking idea behind the game? Maybe we can make some changes to appeal to that audience".
EQ is dead. Not just the game, but many of the ideas behind it as well. At release, they might have been design flaws or oversights that turned into mechanics due to players working around/with the game to overcome the challenges, but those same challenges made the game what it was. After this kickstarter I doubt we will ever see the ideas again. So, if you like the ideas behind it, pledge for it. You are not just pledging for a game here, but the resurrection of a genre of mmos that have been lost.
That being said, I fully understand why some people are skeptical of this kickstarter, because it is just that. Funding an idea behind the game, not the actual game itself. The actual game will be funded elsewhere and later. Be that SOE or other things, it matters little. This is basically a kickstarter for the vision. Most of us know what that represents, problem the kickstarter has is that hardly anyone else does.
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I can see it now. "Ok guys make sure you all hang out in Halas or Permafrost for at least 2 hours tonight we expect Lady Vox to pop any time now and you need your resistance buff." meanwhile Lord Nagafen spawns, but sorry guys we only have frost resist too bad.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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I don't like the idea either but even I will give him more credit than that. The problem is him talking about his aspirations rather than talking about what he knows they will be putting into the game. He did the same thing with Vanguard. He needs someone to keep him grounded and stop him from giving interviews like this. He's a never ending hype machine and we're all sick of it.
They need to hire some Skyrim modders.
Frostfall - Skyrim Survivor Series
Its actually a very good mod btw
Frostfall - Skyrim Survivor Series
Its actually a very good mod btw
Big Flex
Fitness Fascist
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bro you know how that shits actually turns out in reality, it turns into ppl afking in zones for the sole purpose of gaining a statistical advantage
Yes, resistance/climate clothing could be cool, more loot to gather, more inventory-handling, more gameplay at least for the likes of me w love that stuff. Others may find it a nuisance though. However waiting for some buff to come to full stats ("acclimatization") sounds bad.
I also like Bane weapons: had a lot of fun gathering all the ingredients and crafting the Seru Baneweapons for my Beastord. Fun times getting those Fungoid Saps in the Deep.
So this article focus'd on that one aspect , why would this in any way hold up dumping every other bit you have of information every where else ? Why was this waited on at all ?
Trolls and Ogres frollicking in the sun to get that base tan before dungeon time with the red dragon ?
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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lol i was going to bring that up..
Probably would of been better to release the SS after the article dropped.
Agreed about the article too. Why are we talking possible features when we don't know the basics like the class system? I'll stop there tho.. Don't want to step too far out of my fanboy zone or the internet popo will pounce!
The article does touch on having spells and equipment to be used in lieu of the buffs. I think the goal of the system would be to allow you to swap that out to be more effective.
What if the cold resistance buff prevented you from getting an alacrity buff? So by building up resistance you are overcoming those limitations. Same with equipment. You will have to wear cold gear equipment, until you adapt, thus limiting your effectiveness until you gradually overcome the elements.
This seems like a mechanic that fits in pretty well with the idea of a hardcore niche mmo.
Depends how it's done, if it's not too weak and it's a sort of"Fuck, this place is harsh.. I should do something about that or this will suck"then it could be quite cool. It mentions swamps maybe being poisonous so if Trolls are immune but everyone else needs gear with X to deal with it, nifty. Also, if you split raid encounters equally among the environments you throw in a way that prevents guilds just putting the entire thing on rotate because they have to acclimatise their raid force every time they switch targets.
Great opportunity for it to be really shitty though, turn into the equivalent of buffing your raid by having them all stand in guild lobby 24hours prior soaking up MGB's.
Great opportunity for it to be really shitty though, turn into the equivalent of buffing your raid by having them all stand in guild lobby 24hours prior soaking up MGB's.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
- 19,879
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Let's not forget, we have things like crafting as a stretch goal and he's talking about a gameplay mechanic in this interview that is not listed in the KS at all. So he either plans on focusing this into the core project (which he feels is more important than crafting, or monks, or bards) or he's doing nothing but talking about his dreams for a game he could create with unlimited resources.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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It's also possible he's responding to a lot of the "looks like the same old shit" comments.. There were a ton of them.. I just wish they would wait until we had the info on all the "same old shit" features first.
Not sure I can take someone seriously who twice in the last few days have made posts saying "brad and devs need to tell us x" when they had already told us x. It is not my fault you are ignorant. Read this thread for starters. If you think I am a schill, you are completely retarded. (Even without thinking that I am pretty sure you are completely retarded).
I can't wait for your next flip out post saying "gdamn it. Why won't they even tell us if clerics will be in the game."
I pulled my pledge and have been critical of every step of this kickstarter, but at the same time lets be fair. He never said this was thebe all end all world beatingarticle. Its just another step and it was a good one. That's a very interesting concept. And the two new pix were pretty good.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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ADD did something like this,or did you never try to visit the plane of fire?
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I think 'pie in the sky' is the appropriate way to describe it. It's something they thought about, they'd like to do but don't know how feasible it really is. Kind of like the whole KS project really.