Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,761
- 613
Yea I probably should of been more clear about that. It was a donation thing. It helped me tho.. I made friends with other classes for buffs. That's why I don't mind the system. It just worked for my case. I can see some not liking it but it wasn't a terrible system.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,761
- 613
Classes having useful, unique buffs/abilities for a group is a good thing and I'm not arguing against that.
IMO ports fall into a different category entirely and should be handled, ideally, by the gameworld instead of a specific class.
Then by your own definition, there is no gameworld. Because every player can now bypass the world as it is, which means that every single player has the option of not dealing with it, and, in an effective sense, it no longer exists.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 3,656
- 1,382
If your going to incorporate something like boats, what about flight paths then? I'm not saying go to the length that WoW went but make it limited points around the continent (read: not next to a dungeon).
- 7,547
- 11,830
And how many druids would port you if you said you weren't going to offer a donation or port you ever again if you stiffed them? Call it a donation, fee, or price of purchase, either way it was a thing pretty unique to a very small percentage of the population and became something often seen as necessary. It's great that the people using their unique skills found a way to get money from it, but that doesn't mean the surrounding mechanics were good and should be repeated.
Same with SoW. When SoW got to the point it was seen as necessary for travel, it became an indicator of imbalance issues. Mechanics were introduced to fix the balance. Over the years, too many balance fixes made it such that travel in games has become completely trivialized. That doesn't mean we should go back to the initial balance that led to imbalance. Find the reasonable balance, where SoW is still preferred, but not seen as required.
The difference between selling SoW and Ports can even be seen in the difference between a druid and shaman selling SoW. The shaman was seen as part of the community, whereas the druid was often seen as an outsider, because shaman were often wanted for groups, sometimes needed, so were included in the community that was largely focused on group content. The result is that many people rolled their eyes at druids selling ports or SoW, but begrudgingly understood it, because they weren't perceived as all that desirable for groups. It becomes a strange mix of jealousy and pity that changes how we look at these things over time and how we considered them at the time.
I guess my thinking is instead of going back to mechanics that were so convoluted that we had to say things like 'at least they can solo' or 'at least they have something like porting or SoW to offer the community' we just fix the mechanics. In large part, make all classes desirable for groups for different, but valid reasons. Make SoW preferred, but not perceived as required. Make ports faster, but not perceived as required.
The forced interaction should be people grouping so they can kill stuff, and killing stuff is a big portion of the game, not by one class always being the stepping stool that helps another player go play the game. No class should make their mark or find their niche by being effectively excluded from a huge aspect that fuels the community of the game, which is grouping to kill shit. If someone wants to solo or be anti-social, that's cool, let that be a possible decision. I suspect a lot of druids and wizards didn't WANT to be seen as anti-social soloers who at least could port and we should donate for their services because that's what they're good at... and then they aren't needed because the game matured to the point every guild as a pocket porter or two.
I guess I just don't see arguing for the small, side benefits of something I see as a bigger, detrimental mechanic. If the root mechanics are fixed, we don't have to be happy to get the scraps. We don't have to have classes where their sole perceived job in the game is to help other people group. Everyone should just have a place in a group, all classes bringing their own little tricks that make things more convenient or possible. But when those tricks are at the exclusion of that class, no thanks.
So, if you want to play another game where you're seen as little more than a port bitch, or SoW bitch, or corpse summoning bitch, so be it. I'd rather see a game where you're IN the group and it's nice to know you can also port or SoW or summon corpses if it's needed.
Same with SoW. When SoW got to the point it was seen as necessary for travel, it became an indicator of imbalance issues. Mechanics were introduced to fix the balance. Over the years, too many balance fixes made it such that travel in games has become completely trivialized. That doesn't mean we should go back to the initial balance that led to imbalance. Find the reasonable balance, where SoW is still preferred, but not seen as required.
The difference between selling SoW and Ports can even be seen in the difference between a druid and shaman selling SoW. The shaman was seen as part of the community, whereas the druid was often seen as an outsider, because shaman were often wanted for groups, sometimes needed, so were included in the community that was largely focused on group content. The result is that many people rolled their eyes at druids selling ports or SoW, but begrudgingly understood it, because they weren't perceived as all that desirable for groups. It becomes a strange mix of jealousy and pity that changes how we look at these things over time and how we considered them at the time.
I guess my thinking is instead of going back to mechanics that were so convoluted that we had to say things like 'at least they can solo' or 'at least they have something like porting or SoW to offer the community' we just fix the mechanics. In large part, make all classes desirable for groups for different, but valid reasons. Make SoW preferred, but not perceived as required. Make ports faster, but not perceived as required.
The forced interaction should be people grouping so they can kill stuff, and killing stuff is a big portion of the game, not by one class always being the stepping stool that helps another player go play the game. No class should make their mark or find their niche by being effectively excluded from a huge aspect that fuels the community of the game, which is grouping to kill shit. If someone wants to solo or be anti-social, that's cool, let that be a possible decision. I suspect a lot of druids and wizards didn't WANT to be seen as anti-social soloers who at least could port and we should donate for their services because that's what they're good at... and then they aren't needed because the game matured to the point every guild as a pocket porter or two.
I guess I just don't see arguing for the small, side benefits of something I see as a bigger, detrimental mechanic. If the root mechanics are fixed, we don't have to be happy to get the scraps. We don't have to have classes where their sole perceived job in the game is to help other people group. Everyone should just have a place in a group, all classes bringing their own little tricks that make things more convenient or possible. But when those tricks are at the exclusion of that class, no thanks.
So, if you want to play another game where you're seen as little more than a port bitch, or SoW bitch, or corpse summoning bitch, so be it. I'd rather see a game where you're IN the group and it's nice to know you can also port or SoW or summon corpses if it's needed.
Darkfall UW had the perfect port system imo. Portal chambers spread across the world that had a highish cost in gold depending on how far you wanted to go, gold cost and out of the way location of the chambers meant you didn't use them that lightly, plus since it was a pvp game they were dangerous places to go alone but that prolly isn't relevant to pantheon.
They also had portal shards that were fairly rare drops from some types of mobs, and those worked like a single charge worldwide COTH to someone, so if some guy wanted to join your group and was a 2 hour run away you could just summon him, the cost was high since shards were rare so it was never something you did unless time was a big factor or you were obscenely rich.
They also had portal shards that were fairly rare drops from some types of mobs, and those worked like a single charge worldwide COTH to someone, so if some guy wanted to join your group and was a 2 hour run away you could just summon him, the cost was high since shards were rare so it was never something you did unless time was a big factor or you were obscenely rich.
- 7,547
- 11,830
That still cheats the lowly wizard who is forced to solo and getting 'donations' for ports is their only means of feeding their family!
How about there are wizard spires that anyone can use, for a fee, and instead of that fee being eaten by the game, a portion of it gets distributed among wizards who're active on the server. A royalty paid so other people are allowed to play the game with some measure of convenience!
How about there are wizard spires that anyone can use, for a fee, and instead of that fee being eaten by the game, a portion of it gets distributed among wizards who're active on the server. A royalty paid so other people are allowed to play the game with some measure of convenience!
Any of this stuff is fine within reason. It's really just a design equation where time and travel are not trivial. If they can be made interesting beyond the first couple of times, it's a win. That's one of the reasons the port spires kind of blow I think because they are the same time and travel bit but you just blink out of existence. Sure, you could just afk and let it happen but again that promotes that lazy gamer thing that I think a lot of us don't like. Same deal with the, "Hail, Port Me" NPCs and to a lesser extent the damn meeting stones.
The tough part comes from the skipping parts of the game world which the boats and flights still do to a lesser extent. The flights and boats let you see a bit more than teleport npcs or devices though so that's better. If it's zoned though, it's still going to be a shortish flight/boat ride between zones most likely or may become more tedious than running. Maybe that would encourage the run but it would still get old fast.
A lot of this seems to weigh heavily on the geography design between towns, PoIs, port locations and dungeons though. Make that part right and the travel will be just long and dangerous enough to matter and be tolerable but not so short and safe as to be meaningless.
Furious
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 2,932
- 4,992
Haha. LFG trolling you guys hard.
Let's all have bard speed and port spells. I hope my rogue has life tap spells and I can solo through an instanced dungeon and sell my loot at the global auction house.
Oh, and ill do this while I'm sitting on my flying mount polishing my huge dyed pink shoulder pads.
Let's all have bard speed and port spells. I hope my rogue has life tap spells and I can solo through an instanced dungeon and sell my loot at the global auction house.
Oh, and ill do this while I'm sitting on my flying mount polishing my huge dyed pink shoulder pads.
Rod-138
Trakanon Raider
- 1,149
- 896
I like the cost benefit analysis type decisions that have to be made when considering traveling. It's cool to have ideal hunting grounds spread out so a player is forced to get creative with the area he's in or bite the bullet and embark on a journey.
It does so much for itemization too. Want j boots? You have to leave faydwar (auto corrected spelling as gay wars) to have a shot; increasing the novelty of the item for class restricted guys AKA giving us shit to do at a later date
It does so much for itemization too. Want j boots? You have to leave faydwar (auto corrected spelling as gay wars) to have a shot; increasing the novelty of the item for class restricted guys AKA giving us shit to do at a later date
- 7,547
- 11,830
I'm guessing this means the enchanter will have a spell that forces everyone nearby to hip-hop dance.
I am interested in knowing why a majority of the people claiming they don't want a dungeon finder in game, were the same ones bitching over the past years complaining when any mmo released that DIDNT have a dungeon finder.
Just...no. Ok, in that vein, why can I not sit in POK and get donations for KEI? Its just a button push right? Except I'm not a chanty. Or why can't I get money for casting temperance? Ohh that's right, because I'm not a cleric. Each class has stuff they can and cannot do. You make a choice when you roll that class. Complaining he cannot port is fucking stupid. So roll a fucking wizard or druid if you want to port and spend the next year getting fucking slaughtered five thousand times because you have no HP and being ignored by groups because there are three other classes who out DPS you. Do your fucking time playing the class and you get the reward. You realize the reason you saw so many druids and wizzys porting is because no one wanted us in groups so we had time to kill while waiting for someone desperate enough to invite us? So if we are rewarded with a little bit of coin I think we've earned it.
Ya beat me to it. I responded before reading the rest of the thread haha.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,761
- 613
My thing with class ports is I saw it as part of a system. Where other classes had things to trade that were of value to me. KEI and SOW being 2 of the big ones. So should we do away with stuff like that as well? Do they make the game more or less interesting? Take class ports away from the wizard but leave speed buffs in for certain classes.. Is that fair? I don't think it is..I could make an argument either way but in the end I think unquie abilities to classes, make the game better.
Every single time I would port even if no donation was offered. There was a thing calledreputation. You lived or died on your server by your reputation. You act like a jerk or a greedy fuck, word got around, quick.
Port spells for a couple of classes, and a Call of the Hero type for another one is a good solution. People go to certain hubs where they know these people will be waiting to port them, even if it is for currency. I don't care if I see the same Mage there every day shouting "Ports for 50gp", I will come to know him and gladly pay for his services.
Having a CoH would be great for emergencies, replacements, someone just logged in when everyone else is there, etc...maybe it has a long cooldown.
Dungeon finder type tools are nice for convenience but whether people want to admit it or not, you are going to care less about the people that you are randomly grouped with. If you had form up in something like an LFG chat channel it helps build community and camaraderie, you will chat while waiting for the group to fill up. You see and hear some of the same people, start to recognize them (for good or bad) and friendships are formed. If a group went extremely well you will most likely add one or two of those people to your friends list.
Having a CoH would be great for emergencies, replacements, someone just logged in when everyone else is there, etc...maybe it has a long cooldown.
Dungeon finder type tools are nice for convenience but whether people want to admit it or not, you are going to care less about the people that you are randomly grouped with. If you had form up in something like an LFG chat channel it helps build community and camaraderie, you will chat while waiting for the group to fill up. You see and hear some of the same people, start to recognize them (for good or bad) and friendships are formed. If a group went extremely well you will most likely add one or two of those people to your friends list.