I very much like this statement. Simple and to the point and the way I want the game designed also.
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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That was a totally different issue tho. Just bc classes might have ports in pantheon doesn't mean they won't be viable in groups.
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Or they could just fix base mechanics so you don't have an entire caster player-base dependent on one spell? Or an entire non-porting player-base dependent on two classes? Etc.
I don't think these thing were the problem, just the symptom. If you have people not willing to play the game until they get a single buff, then there's a problem with balance.
How about the reward for being a druid or wizard isn't getting donations for helping the rest of us enjoy the game in groups, but by designing a game where druids and wizards are just as desirable for groups as any other dps/utility class?
Because, otherwise, it's basically saying you want a class to be intentionally design out of the majority of the game so you can enjoy one or two isolated aspects the community needed you for, while not needing or even wanting you for the rest of the game.
I'll say it again: you should be worth more as a class than the few little tricks you get paid to perform because nobody else wants or needs you for anything else.
A wizard shouldn't be sitting around thankful a game designer added in the necessity of ports for them to have something to do and get some gold from it... in a group-focused game, why shouldn't that wizard be in a group experiencing the game?
Couple comments for LFG and for Brad.
LFG,
You do make a valid point of discussion when you talk about a melee class or non-porting class not having the convenience of a porting class. I don't know what your MMO experience is, but I'll talk in EQ language.
EQ was designed so that when the world was expanded, high level players and low level players were separated onto different continents. I think this was a mistake.
Later in EQ's lifetime, as players were spread further apart, things like TP's became more important. Early in EQ, you could just hang out around the dungeon you wanted to group in and get groups all day long. Once we started being moved to Kunark and Velious, ports became very important because groups were spread out more.
So back to the main issue here. The need of TPing really comes down to how the team designs Pantheon. If they go the EQ route, yes, TP will be needed. If they build the game so that players are not forced apart, then I think TP's will not only be less important but also easier to come by if you do need one.
Another things about this is the starting cities. In one of the videos, Brad said that they don't want to do starting cities because eventually players will just be using them for merchants. I think that issue is caused by how the world is designed. If expansion content doesn't purposely separate players, then players will still be around the starting areas, even at higher levels.
You can add expansions into the game that doesn't have "all the amenities" of home, which would create travel routes in the game.
So Brad, when you expand the game world, just add adventure content. Don't add new cities, and areas that replace the main game, to the expansion zones. Design the game so that players still have to come back to the main land and main continent to sell, train, craft, etc. This will keep players bunched together, making services easier to come by, but also create trade routes like you want because players have to keep moving to come home and do business.
LFG,
You do make a valid point of discussion when you talk about a melee class or non-porting class not having the convenience of a porting class. I don't know what your MMO experience is, but I'll talk in EQ language.
EQ was designed so that when the world was expanded, high level players and low level players were separated onto different continents. I think this was a mistake.
Later in EQ's lifetime, as players were spread further apart, things like TP's became more important. Early in EQ, you could just hang out around the dungeon you wanted to group in and get groups all day long. Once we started being moved to Kunark and Velious, ports became very important because groups were spread out more.
So back to the main issue here. The need of TPing really comes down to how the team designs Pantheon. If they go the EQ route, yes, TP will be needed. If they build the game so that players are not forced apart, then I think TP's will not only be less important but also easier to come by if you do need one.
Another things about this is the starting cities. In one of the videos, Brad said that they don't want to do starting cities because eventually players will just be using them for merchants. I think that issue is caused by how the world is designed. If expansion content doesn't purposely separate players, then players will still be around the starting areas, even at higher levels.
You can add expansions into the game that doesn't have "all the amenities" of home, which would create travel routes in the game.
So Brad, when you expand the game world, just add adventure content. Don't add new cities, and areas that replace the main game, to the expansion zones. Design the game so that players still have to come back to the main land and main continent to sell, train, craft, etc. This will keep players bunched together, making services easier to come by, but also create trade routes like you want because players have to keep moving to come home and do business.
If you have a LFG finder, there's no reason for a friends list. Nobody will use it because you have bodies on-tap. If you have to form a group yourself, the organic process requires that you keep track of people that are good, you like, etc. That's what the friends list facilitates.
It's conflicting design to have both, and the result is the list or the LFG channel will hardly ever be used, if at all, if you have the god-powers of an auto-grp manager.
It's conflicting design to have both, and the result is the list or the LFG channel will hardly ever be used, if at all, if you have the god-powers of an auto-grp manager.
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Yet, the porters who were assholes and required payment up front still got paid for their ports, reputation or not. Because, while I loved EQ for what it was, what it was was a collection of mechanics that I think were flawed and led to too many nights where you weren't allowed to play the game because of them. There's got to be ways to let people play the game without giving it all to them for free.
Like, wizards can port, so you'll get to your group in 5 minutes instead of 10, so wizards that's a benefit they bring to a group. They're also good dps and have a few other tricks that make them cool for grouping, so are invited to groups like anyone else. Then, at the end of the night, everyone can use their personal gate ability on an hour cooldown to their bind point, but wizards can port themselves whereever they want. Hey, that's cool, adds flavor and convenience to the class. Oh, and later, they get an ability where they can translocate other players to a main port spot of their choice, hey, cool. Suddenly wizards are wanted, have a few unique tricks, and sorry nobody is going to donate to you because the game requires it.
See also: fuck if I'll play a game ever again where I have to stand around waiting for a caster to bind me. That's not fun for anyone, usually not even the caster who gets a few jink in the form of a donation.
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Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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That was an issue with EQ tho. I mean, chanters had a very coveted buff and were still highly sought out for groups. I think if had to decide as a wizard if I wanted ports or KEI, I'd take KEI. I think what we need to decide is if we want an EQ like class interdependence system in Pantheon or not?
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Has anyone actually argued for an auto-grouping or instant-travel LFG system? I see a lot of arguing against it...
Lambourne
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I was perfectly happy with the EQ LFG window. For those that can't remember, the window listed people that had flagged themselves as LFG with their level, class and a custom text that indicated what they were up for. Also had a button to send a tell if I recall correctly, very handy for that bastard cleric named Illili??iili? or whatever. Essentially it was just a more organized version of /w all LFG.
A LFG channel usually just ends up full of spam (see early WoW trade channel)
A LFG channel usually just ends up full of spam (see early WoW trade channel)
But the same problem arises again: you're giving an ability away that belonged to a class or certain classes (bind, gate) to every single player. Every step you go along this road diminishes class uniqueness & usefulness. If you keep traversing it, giving all players bind, gate, ports trough the UI or an npc, then the distinction and significance of each class becomes less & less, until finally in the end, you're left with nothing but differences of window dressing, as in Warcraft.
I absolutely loved the bind, gate mechanic in EverQuest, not having it available via some dialog box or npc to every player. That was a great design choice.
edit: Let me put it another way, more succinctly maybe: there should benoability that every class has, no ability that every single class shares (in before sense heading & bind wound is trolled up by someone). No universal gate spell, no universal bind spell, no universal port spells. An ability shared amongst a subset of classes, such as casters, is okay, but needs to be minimized.
No single ability should be shared amongst every class, end of story.
I absolutely loved the bind, gate mechanic in EverQuest, not having it available via some dialog box or npc to every player. That was a great design choice.
edit: Let me put it another way, more succinctly maybe: there should benoability that every class has, no ability that every single class shares (in before sense heading & bind wound is trolled up by someone). No universal gate spell, no universal bind spell, no universal port spells. An ability shared amongst a subset of classes, such as casters, is okay, but needs to be minimized.
No single ability should be shared amongst every class, end of story.
Personal opinion: Ports should be expensive but obtainable by yourself.
If you want the port to be cheaper, go to a porting class.
Make money the main issue with ports like EQ1, except add in an option if you can't find a port. Money should directly translate to time spent.
If you want the port to be cheaper, go to a porting class.
Make money the main issue with ports like EQ1, except add in an option if you can't find a port. Money should directly translate to time spent.
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EQ like is fine. The isolated instances that are hotly debated are hotly debated because they stemmed from a systematic failure in the core game mechanics. 99% of the class interdependency in EQ isn't a topic of debate, because it was just fine. It's the few isolated incidents that are issues. Namely, KEI was too powerful and exposed a failure in EQs mechanics. The world was, at times, too nut kicking and anti-grouping, and the issue of teleports exposes a failure in that design. Etc.
You know, it was handy on the occasion you had to ask a bard to help find your corpse. It was nice to get a mage or druid damage shield. Hell, it's hard to even list all the minor ways classes interacted that added to the whole of the experience, because they were just accepted as part of the game. The things that stand out are the aspects that were symptoms of greater issues. Why not just fix the underlying mechanics so it's not such a big deal in a future game? And fix it right, as EQ tried to fix all these things and often in wrong ways, or because it was EQ and already had an established expectation, the changes weren't well received.
I cannot believe this is even a fucking question now that I've thought about it. Do we want a hardcore group focused, oldschool MMO or yet ANOTHER preschool rainbow and sunshine everyone is happy and feels good all the time shitfest?
Fuck me man, everyone porting and fucking group finding bullshit? Really?
I never paid for a port unless I wanted to, you know why? I fucking traded Clarity for a port. People can barter, or converse, make friends, whatever. For fucks sake just give players the skills and FORCE them to interact or they can GTFO!
That tutorial nonsense sucks too. Just throw people into the world and force them to adapt and overcome. That's what players want these days, look at DayZ for fucks sake. You log into that game starving and with no guidance whatsoever, PLUS every other player is trying to kill you or steal your fucking BLOOD right out of your veins to use as healing packs.
Stop being pussies and MAKE A HARDCORE PVE MMO!!! Make it so hard you cannot even survive alone, or travel alone, or do jack shit alone.
Can't there be ONE MMO like this? Just ONE is all we want.
Fuck me man, everyone porting and fucking group finding bullshit? Really?
I never paid for a port unless I wanted to, you know why? I fucking traded Clarity for a port. People can barter, or converse, make friends, whatever. For fucks sake just give players the skills and FORCE them to interact or they can GTFO!
That tutorial nonsense sucks too. Just throw people into the world and force them to adapt and overcome. That's what players want these days, look at DayZ for fucks sake. You log into that game starving and with no guidance whatsoever, PLUS every other player is trying to kill you or steal your fucking BLOOD right out of your veins to use as healing packs.
Stop being pussies and MAKE A HARDCORE PVE MMO!!! Make it so hard you cannot even survive alone, or travel alone, or do jack shit alone.
Can't there be ONE MMO like this? Just ONE is all we want.
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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That's one thing I don't think you're ever going to recreate. At least not on the level that it was in EQ. Back then, people played the same game, on the same server, for years. This allowed reps to be built. I don't think any MMO, including this one if made, is going to get that kind of commitment from players anymore. At least not a large number of them.
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This is huge for me. I think the best and perhaps only way for Pantheon to succeed in creating any sense of community is to design places for players to congregate. The logical place is cities. No reason a noob should start in the same city mid levels come back to sell their wares, which is the same city high levels spend time in crafting while looking for groups (since higher levels are usually more specific than just trying to get any group for exp).
The game will have to be designed to go through cities, though. Let all players port between the cities, as this serves as keeping cities the hubs of community, communication and grouping. Build cities so they're strategically placed in the world, so high level content is sometimes still relatively close to the city, not a continent away. Rest exp in cities, if they have such a thing. Diplomacy style buffs from cities. Merchants and AH in cities only. Make it so some places even porting classes have to port from the city. The more reasons they can get people into cities, the better.
The only concern, imo, is form a technological standpoint and whether they can support it. From every gameplay standpoint, though, I think it's absolutely vital for this project.
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Fuck yeah, man, I agree. If fuckers want to bind themselves, they can roll a caster! If assholes want the convenience of travel, they can find 7 other players to go with them! Because the only way to make a game that isn't GW2 or WoW is to make a game so hardcore your description isn't even close to what EQ resembled!!!
Vandyn
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I don't see anything wrong with a grouping mechanic. Sorry, there are going to be times where it's 2am and not a whole lot of people on. The answer shouldn't be 'log off' at that point if you can't find a group via chat.
There should be other things to do, to be sure: maybe crafting or very, very inefficient soloing. But you should not be able to progress at even close to the same level as with a group, no.
Why should a instant skip content ability be available to a selected class at all in a game that is focused on combat? Balancing around this single ability becomes nightmarish if it saves you 30-60min of waiting or re-clearing. And trivializes travel in general.