Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Wolfshead_sl said:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here but both Brad and Salim came out pretty strongly against the idea of dynamic content in Pantheon in the recent Project 1999 video on YouTube.

I believe dynamic content is the future of the MMORPG genre as it is far less costly to create and provides far more enjoyment for the players than the current stale scripted theme-park model.

Ipublished an article about thistoday.

Click to expand...

I like what I'm seeing from Smed:

The Sandbox MMO | johnsmedley

My belief is simple - the content driven model is not where we should be aiming as an industry. Why? It's unsustainable. When we first began making these kinds of games 18 years ago there was nothing to compare our games to. Players were so excited about being able to be a part of these virtual worlds that just about any content was exciting. Over the years the quality has really been steadily rising to the point where we have some brilliant narrative and exciting storylines in many MMOs today.The real issue is a simple one - our ability to consume that content as players has gotten to the point that most content is done by the players nearly immediately after it's released. It's also laid out for all to see on any number of websites that contain complete spoilers up to and including the loot drop percentages.

In my opinionthe solution is focusing a lot more on letting players make and be content for each other.Battlegrounds are an excellent example of an Evergreen style of content where it's the players themselves that actually create the content. Auction houses are another example. So are things like storytelling tools in SWG.. or the brilliant music system in LOTRO. Building systems into the games that let the players interact with each other in new and unique ways gives us the ability to watch as the players do stuff we never anticipated. We'll see a lot more creativity in action if the players are at the center of it. Imagine an MMORPG of a massive city.. and the Rogue's guild is entirely run by players. Where the city has an entire political system that is populated by players who were elected by the playerbase.

There's a great example of this today with Eve Online. It's a brilliantly executed system where the players are pretty much in charge of the entire game. Sure there is a lot of content for players to do, but anything that's important in the game is done by the players. This is a shining example of how this kind of system can thrive.

Our belief at SOE is that it's smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting. We want to innovate and let players be a part of everything we do including make the game in the first place. We're going to take the idea of sandbox gaming and we're putting it at the core of everything we're doing. We'll obviously still be making awesome stuff for players to do, but we're going to aim very high in terms of letting players be a part of the game systems. The more emergent sandbox style content we can make the less predictable the experience will be.

Vandyn_sl said:

EQ had 3 things that really defined the type of game it was. None of which was difficulty.

Click to expand...

Have you just resorted to trolling with ignorant statements now? So crowd control required no skill? Split pulling, or the ability to decide which mob to pull first and in what order requires no skill? Aggro management by casters required no skill? using the correct heals at the right time (again, aggro management) required no skill? The ability to conserve mana by healers and casters by choosing different combinations of healing/attacks to avoid downtime yet maximize DPS required no skill? Pulling required no skill? Tanks switching mobs and using taunts yet keeping aggro of mobs during mez breaks required no skill? Kiting required no skill? All raiding was simple zerg rushing? Breaking Fear required no skill?

Those are just a few examples which makes me wonder what in the world you are even talking about. I think 60% of your posts are spot on, but then you come in with a very broad brush and say something totally ignorant like this and it makes me wonder what the hell game you were playing.

I understand you are trying to strengthen your argument, but your going about it the wrong way. That is like someone from the anti-WOW crowd stating, "The only reason people played WOW was because it was easy". You can't pick and choose game elements you want to use and totally discount about 90% of the game because it supports your argument.

Merlin_sl said:

Have you just resorted to trolling with ignorant statements now? So crowd control required no skill? Split pulling, or the ability to decide which mob to pull first and in what order requires no skill? Aggro management by casters required no skill? using the correct heals at the right time (again, aggro management) required no skill? The ability to conserve mana by healers and casters by choosing different combinations of healing/attacks to avoid downtime yet maximize DPS required no skill? Pulling required no skill? Tanks switching mobs and using taunts yet keeping aggro of mobs during mez breaks required no skill? Kiting required no skill? All raiding was simple zerg rushing? Breaking Fear required no skill?

Those are just a few examples which makes me wonder what in the world you are even talking about. I think 60% of your posts are spot on, but then you come in with a very broad brush and say something totally ignorant like this and it makes me wonder what the hell game you were playing.

I understand you are trying to strengthen your argument, but your going about it the wrong way. That is like someone from the anti-WOW crowd stating, "The only reason people played WOW was because it was easy". You can't pick and choose game elements you want to use and totally discount about 90% of the game because it supports your argument.

Click to expand...

Tell me again, what you described in the first paragraph, how is that any more difficult than what you do in WoW, especially in a raid setting? Yes, most of raiding in EQ was zerg rushing, it was simply strength in numbers. I thought we were talking about difficulty not skill? My assumption is the player knows how to play their class in which case half of what you posted has nothing to do with difficulty if you know what your doing (meaning not a newbie).

I guess I should of added that all three of those elements I listed, even the tedium is what make you immersed in the world. I'm just saying when I think of Everquest, I don't think of it as 'difficult', especially compared to basically everything that has come out since then.

Vandyn_sl said:

Grinding mobs is the very definition of tedium as all your doing is sitting in one place killing the same mob over and over again, usually just so you can watch that blue experience bar move.

Click to expand...

I feel the same about WoW's instances. Some straight passageways and a room does not make a dungeon. Once you have run them often enough, killing the same mobs over & over again, you get the same amount of tedium with a handful of annoyance too, because now I have to keep moving. At least in EQ I could have the same level of boredom whilst sitting on my ass, and as a chanter I could always hope for that bad pull or mis-timed spawn which would make my life a little more interesting.

BubbySoup_sl said:

I feel the same about WoW's instances. Some straight passageways and a room does not make a dungeon. Once you have run them often enough, killing the same mobs over & over again, you get the same amount of tedium with a handful of annoyance too, because now I have to keep moving. At least in EQ I could have the same level of boredom whilst sitting on my ass, and as a chanter I could always hope for that bad pull or mis-timed spawn which would make my life a little more interesting.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree at all, there's a ton of tedium in WoW as well (hello dailies). My point is simply that some are equating tedium to being difficult.

Dumar_sl said:

WHAT IS GOING ON.

Click to expand...

Man, they're starting to make EA and Bioware's F2P option seem reasonable.

This will launch as the first $30/mo mmo bc no way they go back from a sub forum if its successful. Watch closely Bobby Kotick! This is how we save WoW.

*tongue in cheek obviously. I suck blizzards cock, but I still don't let them cum in my eye*

Some people simply lack the capacity for critical thought and understanding context.

EQ popularized the fucking genre in the west. I cant believe some of you are suggesting otherwise. Who cares about WoW? It did nothing to improve the genre but add choreographed raids to the end of a very sterile progression system.

Listen, defining "difficulty" in video games is one of those stupid arguments that can go back and forth forever because, ultimately, it's subjective. I'm not going to labor my point for that reason, but I'm going to say this.

Progress in early EQ was clearly DIFFICULT. If you disagree with this, you either 1. didn't play early EQ, 2. are lying for some reason, 3. are just a damn fool. Whether progress was difficult because of tedious reasons, like long/rare spawns, slow leveling, death penalties, corpse runs etc., or whether it was difficult because of other reasons, like intended mechanics (aggro, runners, starting in pitch black with only a dagger and food/water), unintended mechanics (bugs), limited resources and player competition, etc., ultimately, it WAS difficult.

Now you can argue that "progress" may have been difficult, but the "game itself" wasn't difficult and other bullshit like that all day long. Go ahead. EQ was fundamentally an RPG and RPGs are based on character progression. Therefore, if progress in EQ was difficult, the game was difficult.

I wish they would reserve quest for story/lore progression and epic quests. I really do not like dailies or any quests that are used as means of leveling. You shouldn't feel led to effectively level your character by grabbing 8-10 quests at some hub, completing meaningless tasks, and then turn in for buckets of EXP. Leveling should come from exploration and grouping.

Vandyn_sl said:

Tell me again, what you described in the first paragraph, how is that any more difficult than what you do in WoW, especially in a raid setting?

Click to expand...

I didn't play WOW. With that being said, I did not state it was more or less difficult then WOW. I pointed out obvious skills and techniques that players needed to learn to effectively play their class. Like real life, lets use a job as an example, there are those who are at the bottom, middle, and top of their professions based on the skills they have learned over a number years that make them excel at the job. Not all people are on the same level. It depends on the amount of work your willing to invest in it. A small percentage are at the top of their professions (FOH, AL etc..) while others fall in to the middle tiers like the guild that was always starting the raiding content a couple weeks before a new expansion was released. And then you have those who either do not have the time or the abilities or organizational skills to raid at all (the 99%). Now if I assume you were a raider on the level of an "FOH" on your server then the content is easier because your guild/groups invested the time and have the skills to effectively gear and learn the strats which makes the raids easier. But that wasn't because the content was easy, it was because the guild or the groups you played in were in the upper category of the server (the 1%ers).

Vandyn_sl said:

Yes, most of raiding in EQ was zerg rushing, it was simply strength in numbers. I thought we were talking about difficulty not skill? My assumption is the player knows how to play their class in which case half of what you posted has nothing to do with difficulty if you know what your doing (meaning not a newbie).

Click to expand...

This may have been the case through Luclin, but if you raided POP and on, this wasn't the case. Try bum rushing Coirnav or the Rathe Councel and you will just end up a pile of bodies. POT A and B required tons of skill and coordination between multiple groups which split up and had to time their groups to meet up in...if I remember correctly phase 3. Or how bout Mithaniel Marr in HOH? You can try to bum rush him, but again, it will be 72 man "pick up" and a huge corpse run.

Again. Your using a very broad brush to paint everything to fit nicely into your argument. Did you play EQ?

supertouch_sl said:

Some people simply lack the capacity for critical thought and understanding context.

EQ popularized the fucking genre in the west.I cant believe some of you are suggesting otherwise. Who cares about WoW? It did nothing to improve the genre but add choreographed raids to the end of a very sterile progression system.

Click to expand...

EQ maxxed out at 450,000 subs at it's peak. WoW topped 12 million subs at it's peak, with probably at least 3 million in the west. During the time of EQ the typical stereotype of someone who played EQ (or MMO's in general) was still a basement dweller who had no life. Now the stereotype of someone who plays MMO's is someone in their mid to late 20's who has a steady job.

You're wrong.

Merlin_sl said:

I didn't play WOW. With that being said, I did not state it was more or less difficult then WOW. I pointed out obvious skills and techniques that players needed to learn to effectively play their class. Like real life, lets use a job as an example, there are those who are at the bottom, middle, and top of their professions based on the skills they have learned over a number years that make them excel at the job. Not all people are on the same level. It depends on the amount of work your willing to invest in it. A small percentage are at the top of their professions (FOH, AL etc..) while others fall in to the middle tiers like the guild that was always starting the raiding content a couple weeks before a new expansion was released. And then you have those who either do not have the time or the abilities or organizational skills to raid at all (the 99%). Now if I assume you were a raider on the level of an "FOH" on your server then the content is easier because your guild/groups invested the time and have the skills to effectively gear and learn the strats which makes the raids easier. But that wasn't because the content was easy, it was because the guild or the groups you played in were in the upper category of the server (the 1%ers).



This may have been the case through Luclin, but if you raided POP and on, this wasn't the case. Try bum rushing Coirnav or the Rathe Councel and you will just end up a pile of bodies. POT A and B required tons of skill and coordination between multiple groups which split up and had to time their groups to meet up in...if I remember correctly phase 3. Or how bout Mithaniel Marr in HOH? You can try to bum rush him, but again, it will be 72 man "pick up" and a huge corpse run.

Again. Your using a very broad brush to paint everything to fit nicely into your argument.Did you play EQ?

Click to expand...

Not post PoP I didn't (I actually think PoP was the downfall of EQ as one of the aspects I listed, dependability went slowly out the window in some ways). Besides, isn't what people want is a glorified version of EQ pre-PoP (like P1999)? Isn't that what everyone is setting the standard as to what they want Pantheon to be?

Vandyn_sl said:

EQ maxxed out at 450,000 subs at it's peak. WoW topped 12 million subs at it's peak, with probably at least 3 million in the west. During the time of EQ the typical stereotype of someone who played EQ (or MMO's in general) was still a basement dweller who had no life. Now the stereotype of someone who plays MMO's is someone in their mid to late 20's who has a steady job.

You're wrong.

Click to expand...

Who gives a flying fuck about WoW's numbers? Citing its popularity is like arguing that Twilight popularized vampire movies. Games like EQ and UO had a substantial American following long before WoW was even a concept.

mkopec_sl said:

But there would of been no WoW without EQ. If Blizzard made an mmo without EQ ever existing it would of been entirely different if one at all. After all, lets not forget that some of the WOW devs even came from the hardcore EQ raiding crowd.

Lithose god damn man. You need to stop being a goddamn genius with how you describe shit. I mean, its all on our minds, or mostly there, I think? But we just cannot bust it out on in words like you can, brother. /bow

Click to expand...

Not to turn this into a WoW derail, but this is also not true. Development in WoW began in 1999. From Wikipedia:

World of Warcraft was first announced by Blizzard at the ECTS trade show in September 2001.[48] Development of the game started in 1999 and took roughly 4-5 years, including extensive testing.

Soygen_sl said:

So it started development not only years after EQ, but in all likelihood, after EQ even released in May 1999. Wasn't the lead dev on WoW the former guildleader of Legacy of Steel? I forget his name, but not Tigole. This argument is stupid. I'm not sure anyone can say that EQ didn't heavily influence many aspects of WoW.

Click to expand...

The question is did it popularize the genre, not if it influenced WoW. Everyone knows EQ influenced WoW to some degree. It even influenced in bad ways, since WoW was created to combat some of the issues that EQ players were sick and tired of.

Did anything come out of that twitch stream last night that's worth anything? It's not even posted on the KS yet. Apparently one of the devs mentioned gear switching last night in KS comments and sent everyone going crazy over that.

The original version of world of warcraft wasn't even an mmo by today's standards. I remember reading it more like warcraft 3 (unless im thinking of warcraft 3). Then it pulled a 180.