Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Boozecube_sl said:

People keep touting this Unity Engine like some sort of dream software, I am no coder so explain to me if it's so great why aren't others using it to pump out games on the cheap and raking in piles of money?

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Missed my point , in no way was I saying they could actually pump out real game , I meant it's engine and tools will let them throw some really rough shit together quickly , enough to try and drag every dime out of the folks on the private forum and site , until that drys up and then quit. It keeps them from appearing 100% as frauds by at least appearing to make something while they live off the funds of those who are already paypal'ing them money

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Subscription

Seriously , a few are already forum champions , and others asking to pay 6 months of alpha forum sub time up front. Combined with say half the KS amount of around 400k for tiers for those who go on to the private site.

They will be able to live off this for about 6 months I bet before it crashes completely.

Edit: I won't post any more links from there , but it was needed to show just how desparate some are to throw 15/month to a subset of a forum for a game that most likely will never be made.

Brad has some diehard fans, that's for sure. It almost seems like a religion or cult.

Boozecube_sl said:

Part of me hopes so too, at first I didn't want people to get scammed out of there money but at this point I hope brad and crew toss in the last $400k just to fraud these people out of their cash. Even more so because we have players in this thread donating more than they have in their own bank accounts. Anyone who loses money on this project at this point deserves what they get.

I am sure they will sucker in the retards by explaining to them that they have to swindle them out of $15.00 a month for the website because it shows the investors proof of concept, and these fuckers will buy that shit like every other line that has been thrown out.

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i really think your hate of brad and co. is misplaced. i don't think they're out to purposely rob anyone. i think they genuinely want to make this game and are just desperate to come up with the money by any means necessary. is it shady? sounds like it. would i give them money at this point? not a chance. but i also don't think he decided to come up with this idea for a game to just fleece people out of money. i think he really believes in this game and wants to see it happen. i think his drive to see this through to the bitter end is commendable.

Has to be a UT in every thread.

Boozecube_sl said:

No I agree with you on that, I wasn't being sarcastic in my post at all honestly. I was actually curious of this Unity Engine shit is as good as some are saying as it's something I know nothing about.

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It is a very good engine, and most importantly it is pretty cheap. The other major advantages are that you can easily make your game web-based, and Unity is platform agnostic.

It, of course, isn't the solution to every situation though. The major downside in this case is there is no server architecture to speak of, so if you are going to build an MMORPG you need to write the entire back end. Although, there really are no good MMO engines out there you can just buy and use like you can the handful of good front-end ones.

What Unity is VERY good at is the ability for non-programmers to prototype quickly. Assuming you know a basic scripting language, like say javascript, a brand new person could probably generate something basic within 2-3 months. To use Pantheon as an example, you could probably make a dungeon with NPCs, and the ability to fight them. So like a small slice of the game. I haven't messed with the built in networking much but I hear it is alright for small numbers of people, so you could probably even test group dynamics. This would all be client-side and completely unusable in the final game, but at least you can play, test, and demonstrate designs while the back end is worked on.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Missed my point , in no way was I saying they could actually pump out real game , I meant it's engine and tools will let them throw some really rough shit together quickly , enough to try and drag every dime out of the folks on the private forum and site , until that drys up and then quit. It keeps them from appearing 100% as frauds by at least appearing to make something while they live off the funds of those who are already paypal'ing them money

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Subscription

Seriously , a few are already forum champions , and others asking to pay 6 months of alpha forum sub time up front. Combined with say half the KS amount of around 400k for tiers for those who go on to the private site.

They will be able to live off this for about 6 months I bet before it crashes completely.

Edit: I won't post any more links from there , but it was needed to show just how desparate some are to throw 15/month to a subset of a forum for a game that most likely will never be made.

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would you say a significant # of kickstaters are frauds in disguise and that this one falls in that category ? If it does fall into that category, what is it about this one that says scam, fraud etc ?

shabushabu_sl said:

what is it about this one that says scam, fraud etc ?

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Charging a sub for a MMO that doesn't exist?

Oloh_sl said:

You are really stretching here. Whether you believe him or not, Brad's story has been consistent the entire time. Just to be clear, Brad has said on numerous occasions and different outlets that the reason he attributes part of the blame to MicroSoft was:

1. They had a deal for a budget that Sigil felt could make a competitive product, with the understanding that MS will pony up more time/money if competition from EQ2/WoW looked really strong.
2. Regime change at MS + Massive success of WoW -> previous budget not enough.
3. Ask for more time/money and new Regime does not have the same risk temperature as old Regime, so problems ensue.

Again, believe whatever you want about attributing fault, but no one can say that Brad (or anyone else that was involved with VG) has been flip-flopping their story.

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Sadly, this kind of stuff happens all of the time in the video games industry. The story about what happened with Vanguard: Saga of Heroes always reminds me ofThe Next Big Thing.

LFG, they are doing the $15/month subscription because many people asked them to do that because many people are apparently willing to pay for that. People are literally telling them to take their money; happily obliging is one of the smartest moves they have made this entire kickstarter. That said; I do not think this is a scam. If it was just Brad and Salim I would be suspicious, since they have good folks like Ben, Vu and Tony on the team I have no doubts that they do intend to make a game. Being able to complete the game however is another story.

The private website subscription may or may not be a scam (at the very least I think it's a very unwise investment) but the KS is most assuredly a scam. They've offered many rewards for funders of the KS, and yet, even if they were to meet the $800k goal, all they are really funding is a studio. That funding alone will NOT allow them to make good on the rewards they've offered. That's the very definition of a scam - to take money for the promise of something, and not deliver.

"Gimmie $800k and you guys will get this cool shit!"

"Ok we gave you $800k and you got your studio set up, where our rewards?"

"Oops haha we er, need more money to actually MAKE the game."

That's a scam.

Convo_sl said:

IF we have one, and that's an IF, the idea would be to help the community, not hurt the community. It would be something where a player wants to enter a dungeon but doesn't have many friends, or his guild is not on. He or she would be moved to the entrance of the dungeon to meet other people already there. They would then group up and do the dungeon... and hopefully become friends. I don't like teleporting people all over, believe me, but it may be something we need to do to get people grouping together given how large the world is going to be and how much content we'll have.

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Hmm, that sounds vaguely familiar from somewhere.



Oh yeah, the Retard Rocks.

Vandyn_sl said:

On dungeon finder ;

IF we have one, and that's an IF, the idea would be to help the community, not hurt the community. It would be something where a player wants to enter a dungeon but doesn't have many friends, or his guild is not on. He or she would be moved to the entrance of the dungeon to meet other people already there. They would then group up and do the dungeon... and hopefully become friends. I don't like teleporting people all over, believe me, but it may be something we need to do to get people grouping together given how large the world is going to be and how much content we'll have.

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That quote would be really dissapointing if I still believed that the game will be made.

OneofOne_sl said:

The private website subscription may or may not be a scam (at the very least I think it's a very unwise investment) but the KS is most assuredly a scam. They've offered many rewards for funders of the KS, and yet, even if they were to meet the $800k goal, all they are really funding is a studio. That funding alone will NOT allow them to make good on the rewards they've offered. That's the very definition of a scam - to take money for the promise of something, and not deliver.

"Gimmie $800k and you guys will get this cool shit!"

"Ok we gave you $800k and you got your studio set up, where our rewards?"

"Oops haha we er, need more money to actually MAKE the game."

That's a scam.

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I am not all too familiar with KS as this is the only one I contributed to .... perhaps i should go back and look at some other KS to get an idea where this one stands... I do know that nearly all of them talk about tiers for things that if the game never goes live, you will never see... so they all to some degree have some risk... with all this scam talk perhaps it is time to review other kickstarter stuff...

Brad got back to me on the Radar and Dungeon Finder.. Radar doesn't seem to be something they care about.. Not sure why it was mentioned.. The Dungeon finder is something they would consider if forming groups were a problem in Alpha but they would have to get into alpha to decide.

I don't think Brad and team are looking to scam anyone out of money. I wouldn't be supporting this project if that were the case. This may seem like an impossible task to some of you, and maybe it is.. but that doesn't mean the end game(no pun untended) will be to scam people out of their money.. I don't like the sub fee as it is. It should stack to the tiers, but I don't know what the tiers will give access to. It could be an either or situation, but both methods could grant champion access. I have a wait see approach to this one.

So Starship Citizen does this on their site as well?

brad is definately telling you whatever middle of the ground answers he thinks you want to hear, and i dont blame him for trying to please too many masters at this point, i just no longer have to financially support him as a result either.

if im going to have to suffer through possible radar and hypothetical dungeon finders, might as well do that via EQN, rather than play a game with the qualities i dislike in a shit unity assest store presentatiom, three years from now, which may or may not even exist.

i was all for a old school, niche, hardcore (pick your cliche) title. but if you're going to abandon that basic ideal and create a watered down mess, fuck it, i might as well go full retard in DisneyQuest Carebearmark.

p.s. he's also a similtaniously inept AND trying to swindle people. insert other dead horse commemntary here.

Denaut_sl said:

What Unity is VERY good at is the ability for non-programmers to prototype quickly. Assuming you know a basic scripting language, like say javascript, a brand new person could probably generate something basic within 2-3 months. To use Pantheon as an example, you could probably make a dungeon with NPCs, and the ability to fight them. So like a small slice of the game. I haven't messed with the built in networking much but I hear it is alright for small numbers of people, so you could probably even test group dynamics. This would all be client-side and completely unusable in the final game, but at least you can play, test, and demonstrate designs while the back end is worked on.

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How tough would it be to use the Vanguard or EQ backend which I'm sure they have a very good handle on and shoehorn it on top of Unity?

As easy is programming is today compared to when I started <doing Fortran and Structured Cobol>, I'd argue if you can script, you can code.

I'm not quite getting the dungeon finder hate. I'm pro DF.....

and reference my swindle remark, on the ama he stated that the ks money was intended to back pay his team for the month(s) of pro bono work they had already contributed.

not to make a game, as already discussed.
not to move out of his garage, as theorized.

but to divvy up 75k each or so, for their well deserved and hard earned effort on everything you were fortunate enough to feast your eyes upon during the kickstarter. to keep their heads above water and wives off their ass until someone figured out what to do next.

fuck. that.

[?]AraduneMithara 9 points 10 hours ago

The goals haven't really changed. Whether or not we meet the KS goal doesn't change what we'd planned on doing post KS (being reaching out to investors).

I don't have a minimum amount... the team is working pro-bono and has been for months now. We want to give them $$ for their hard work as soon as those dollars start coming in (either from KS, or if KS doesn't succeed, from our website which will mirror all of the KS info).

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Convo_sl said:

Brad got back to me on the Radar and Dungeon Finder.. Radar doesn't seem to be something they care about.. Not sure why it was mentioned.. The Dungeon finder is something they would consider if forming groups were a problem in Alpha but they would have to get into alpha to decide.

I don't think Brad and team are looking to scam anyone out of money. I wouldn't be supporting this project if that were the case. This may seem like an impossible task to some of you, and maybe it is.. but that doesn't mean the end game(no pun untended) will be to scam people out of their money.. I don't like the sub fee as it is. It should stack to the tiers, but I don't know what the tiers will give access to. It could be an either or situation, but both methods could grant champion access. I have a wait see approach to this one.

So Starship Citizen does this on their site as well?

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Star Citizen does, but the way they are financed is beyond ridiculous as is (and I say that as someone that paid them).

I agree that they arent intentionally trying to scam anyone - although like some others keep saying, the alternative is oblivious incompetence which isnt really better. If they are serious about this project they really need to go back to the drawing board, sketch out the game they want to make and present that. These IFs only tell me they have no plan and even if they talk a good talk now the game might change to one I dont want to play even during alpha, let alone release (prime example instant travel but there are others). That's their big problem going forward I think, there is no way to really judge if the game they talk about is for you, because nothing is presented as fact. Everything they say is carried by IF and Maybe and We would like to...

Like I said before if this was a scam they probably would have been better organized than they are. I truly believe these guys do want to make a game they just don't know how to really manage a game without a big corporate publisher like Sony or Microsoft calling the shots; trying to get a game crowd-funded is so alien to them that they don't have a clue on what they are doing.