Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Chukzombi

Millie's Staff Member
71,728
213,046
No Doubt, Being in one of the Uberguilds was a lot of fun because we had free tickets to all the best content in the game, and you know what ruined it? Other people. The minute the second tier guilds and the first tier Asian guilds started taking a piece of the pie it was a real eye opener on how much it sucked.
no shit, we had luclin on lockdown because our competition didnt have the first clue or the intestinal fortitiude to suck dick at those commander camps for weeks on end to get a chance at emp ssra and when we killed him the first time we had the hardest fight in our history, fucker was death touching as well as hitting for a ton of bricks and constantly spawning adds if you didnt keep the first set alive and offtanked. when they tuned him down we were so pissed because he was trivial in comparison and we were not done celebrating loot chrsitmas in VT.

the other guild hated us so much but all we really wanted to do was stay away from them. which is funny i guess in a certain way.
 

JarekStorm_sl

shitlord
116
0
I am a Classic EQ fan. I was even in the EQCLASSIC Alpha last year, so you know, I'm really into EQ Trilogy. Now, I was 30 in 1999, and working full time at a Railroad. It was not a high point in my life by any means, I was not a child, and I sure as shit would never want to go back to that time in my life. I quit EQ during Luclin.

I still want to play another hardcore PvE mmorpg though, because I prefer that style of gameplay. I loved vanilla WoW, and consider my time there equal in enjoyment to the time spent in EQ. The early WoW community was made up of MMO vets from all the various mmo's at that time, so it was a quality group of players in my experience, and the game was pretty damn challenging back then. I quit WoW just after the first expansion.

There's nothing on the horizon now though, nothing at all. That's why so many of us jumped on the Pantheon bandwagon, until we learned it was just smoke and mirrors. As the Kickstarter progressed, I wasn't amused or entertained by the incompetence, I was fucking disappointed. It quickly became clear that Pantheon was not the game we were looking for, or even a game at all, or even a concept for a game really.

I do believe that an oldschool, stripped down, hardcore MMO could succeed in the current gaming climate. Games like DayZ and Dark Souls prove that not all of today's gamers are pussies. There is a hardcore mentality out there, just waiting for that perfect combination of difficulty, openness, and freedom in a punishing, sandbox MMORPG.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
All I see is a nerd who bemoaned society as shallow and ignorant because of our mass consumption of "manufactured experiences" like some hipster hippie jackass yet here he is whining about a fucking video game genre.
all i see is a fuck wit posting here all day every day instead of actually playing any of the games he considers to be superior to everquest.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Good thing it's inevitable Brad will do something to put this thread back on topic.

Anyone on the inside ask him about the money? How much the site has made since the drama and what he plans to pay himself going forward?!
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,836
13,355
all i see is a fuck wit posting here all day every day instead of actually playing any of the games he considers to be superior to everquest.
Why ya gotta be like that etchazz? I'm too busy climbing the seven peaks and transcending human consciousness to worry about games.
 

gogojira_sl

shitlord
2,202
3
Good thing it's inevitable Brad will do something to put this thread back on topic.

Anyone on the inside ask him about the money? How much the site has made since the drama and what he plans to pay himself going forward?!
I think he's made enough to buy himself cheap lunch for a week, so he's probably eating fresh.
 

Erronius

Macho Ma'am
<Gold Donor>
16,483
42,428
If you think the MMO genre has NOT regressed.. just look at 90% of releases...
I wouldn't use the word"regressed", maybe"stagnated"would be a better word. No one has really shaken things up or succeeded at creating an entirely new paradigm. Even WOW design is strikingly similar to EQ1 design on a ton of points, people just tend to get hung up on a lot of minor stuff.

Classes being able to solo content is a fantastic example - it exists in both EQ1 and WOW, only WOW decided to go with more class parity as opposed to the EQ1 design of"certain classes can solo, but the rest of you retards are screwed". One would think that WOW allowing everyone to solo instead of just certain classes would be an improvement, yet we frequently hear people complain about this as if WOW screwed the pooch by doing so. Yet...I don't think I've ever heard any of the people who attack WOW for allowing everyone to solo ever say something like"Yeah, NO ONE should be able to solo, ever: NERF DEM DRUIDS, BARDS, NECROS, ETC". So in the end it seems like people are wanting to be able to selectively "break" a game instead of marginalizing how important that was by allowing everyone to do it. Which is fine, except for the minor issue being that people tend to whitewash this kind of thing and ignore the fact that the design itself was awful and that it was inherently broken to allow only certain classes to break content, all so that those people can have access to classes that allow them to do exactly that.



Even though at the time I thought that WOW was a huge departure from EQ1...and on a number of fronts, it was...over time I've come to realize that it's probably still similar enough to EQ1 design that a lot of our debates are largely meaningless. I don't think that the genre is stagnant because WOW was so different from EQ1 that a return to EQ1 design is what we need, I think the genre is stagnant because the opposite is true: even with the differences that exist WOW is still similar to EQ1, as is almost every other MMO that has come out in the last decade or so. The genre is stagnant because everything that comes out is a rehash of a rehash of a rehash, and playing the umpteenth iteration of a level, item and progression based MMO with only a few differences from other level, item and progression based MMOs is one of the most boring and soul crushing things that someone can do.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Oh it's stagnated for sure. There are very few new ideas. Even Eve, which is fairly novel, is just a lot of the old ideas "done rite".

I think Storybricks sounds like a cheap gimmick myself, but i'm willing to see if it IS just a cheap gimmick. That's not a new idea, exactly, but if they manage to make something which is actually interactive rather than layering on a few different systems to mimic the effects of being interactive, that will be a significant iteration.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
The focus has been more on making games prettier and more stable (both of which are a fine area of focus) instead of making them better.

Fuck it man, they're pretty enough. They're stable enough. Time to go back to making things which are worth the time investment it requires to play these games. That means something new. Level based gameplay is sooooo 1970. Even Gary Gygax said that it was a compromise, they were trying to quantify something which wasn't meant to be quantified, and if he did it all over again he'd do it differently. The idea of levels was always supposed to be an abstract. But you can't automate an abstract.

Unless you can. Maybe storybricks won't be shit.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
Got rid of the basement / upper floor events with the trolls, now you just walk around the 100% linear ground floor killing green dragons and Hakkar.
What fucking crap.

I loved that place, was the only real WoW zone that endeared to me the way EQ zones did.
 

JonJon_sl

shitlord
80
0
In an effort to get this back on topic, I found a post from the official forums that I find humorous.

This post is from a discussion about the mmorpg.com article in the Apprentice Devs forum.

CanadinaXegony_sl said:
Welp..can't stop people from thinking, can't stop people from talking, and as has been said already, theproof is in the pudding. More new stuff will come out, more people will either be positive or negative about it..that's the way it is. Meantime those of us still around here, support the project, and help where we can.
smile.png
Nirrtix_sl said:
Ryan in my opinion he seems to have made his mind up long ago. He may have made his mind up before that game of Magic the Gathering. Plenty of people have opinions as they have a right to. We have found some very experienced people (Unity, programmers etc.) who are willing to work on Pantheon pro-bono. Take Montreseur who is one who offered to work pro-bono. Here is his twitch page:Twitchhe showed it to us. When he did, he had 34 veiwers during 12pm CST. I thought that was as impressive as much as his work in Unity was.In the end everyone has to make a decision whether to support Pantheon. I hope someday they will change their minds when they see the game being made and how impressive it is. This post was edited by Nirrtix at May 8, 2014 7:27 PM EDT
The proof is in the pudding... Very experienced people on the project... 34 people watching some Twitch stream. Guys this thing is definitely going to get made! I mean they already have a thread devoted to post-launch features and stuff.

I call dibs on The Ogre Batman race/class combo and I'm gonna need at least one Warwizard in my group when we get Vu Dragon on lockdown.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
Yeah no shit. There's a reason Brad ended up posting here of all places and it's because this is one of the very few places people still even mention EQ. The funny thing is I don't think the majority of people here would last long enough in a game like EQ to EVER see the good parts. Fuck I barley made it back in the day.

Medding with spellbook open for long periods of time.... super fun!
Being totally fucking lost half the time... really fun!
Missing a fire beetle 30x in a row and then slowly dieing to him at level 3... oh yeah loving it!
Dieing during a hell level and not being able to get a res... nothing feels better than losing a few hours of effort!
Camping the same fucking mob for hours only to gain one or two levels and have absolutely no chance at a decent drop when solo.... oh yeah tons of fun that's why 90% of the players read a fucking book while soloing!
Sitting around on a class that can't solo trying to find a group, or wanting to play at 2AM when nobody is on and not being able to do anything productive because you need a group... yeah that's a whole fuck ton of fun right there!

It sounds great on paper, and yes even with the negatives I listed above and all the others I can think of I still have fond memories of EQ, but they are just that.... memories!!! We have people here bitching about the Wildstar tutorial which while tedious, and stupid is nothing compared to the time sink that is EQ.
Medding with spell book as you kited added so much drama, plus it made getting lv35 all the more awesome as you enjoyed no longer having to constantly keep a timer in your head and imagine how close the mob was to you before you got up and moved.

Being lost, finding new areas and trying to level was what EQ was about. Finding those little nooks and crannies, especially when ex packs were released and everyone was crowded along the beaten trail, going off of it and finding your own place that was empty was so fun, like doing Gargs in OOT or Aviaks in Lake Rathe. Plus it encouraged you to explore just to learn zones by hand to remember and not just have your face buried in the minimap - that was vital on the PvP servers as you could run circles around people unfamiliar with them, get them lost and kill them, or better yet, get them stumbling around, aggro mobs and then panic and then try to zone or at least find a part of the zone to die at that they remembered.


Who gives a fuck how bad things were as a newbie. You were soft as shit and died a ton. I assume you never played an SK - it was awesome finally getting your first spells only to sit at the bank clicking them like mad to skill them up and then afk while you got back mana without meditation.


Plus printing out tons of maps from EQatlas is the very essence of nostalgia.

Was all part of the fun of EQ, as contradictory as that sounds. The hard things made those rewards feel all the sweeter. And getting a res was far, far easier than trying to locate a necro to summon your corpse/help with you the loc corpse spell. Your average necro back in the day often didn't even know they had the summon corpse spell so you often had to camp the Ishva for them and give them the spell as payment, or worse, having to use a necro who knew what a PITA the ordeal was and charged an arm and a le for a corpse summon. all the while rubbing it in the entire time. Things like that, ressing, ports, clarity really encouraged you buddy up and befriend certain classes even if you were an anti-social soloing necro/druid.

I'd rather sit and camp a fucking named than spend hours mindlessly running instances pressing keys and doing content zoned out out of sheer habit. At least with an EQ camp you got to chat up with those in your group and that often was the charge of EQ and why those who criticize it's content have a ring of truth in their argument, it was the continuity making the best of things in spite of content. In WoW and other games you often could do group content without speaking to your party members at all and it's something an RL friend tried to do the most when he played, but even he had to interact with people on EQ even if he was a necro.

Sitting around on a class that can't solo trying to find a group, or wanting to play at 2AM when nobody is on and not being able to do anything productive because you need a group... yeah that's a whole fuck ton of fun right there!
Oh, group class bitching! Try being a Necro, or especially a Druid when you needed to do group content when you had little to contribute to a party and thus had trouble getting people to help you out. That was made worse during Velious-PoP when Necros were nothing but a mana battery during raids while we druids were only useful for porting to the raid and spamming are shitty heals, at least Shamans had unique buffs/ could cure shit as good as a Cleric.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
I wouldn't use the word"regressed", maybe"stagnated"would be a better word. No one has really shaken things up or succeeded at creating an entirely new paradigm. Even WOW design is strikingly similar to EQ1 design on a ton of points, people just tend to get hung up on a lot of minor stuff.

Classes being able to solo content is a fantastic example - it exists in both EQ1 and WOW, only WOW decided to go with more class parity as opposed to the EQ1 design of"certain classes can solo, but the rest of you retards are screwed". One would think that WOW allowing everyone to solo instead of just certain classes would be an improvement, yet we frequently hear people complain about this as if WOW screwed the pooch by doing so. Yet...I don't think I've ever heard any of the people who attack WOW for allowing everyone to solo ever say something like"Yeah, NO ONE should be able to solo, ever: NERF DEM DRUIDS, BARDS, NECROS, ETC". So in the end it seems like people are wanting to be able to selectively "break" a game instead of marginalizing how important that was by allowing everyone to do it. Which is fine, except for the minor issue being that people tend to whitewash this kind of thing and ignore the fact that the design itself was awful and that it was inherently broken to allow only certain classes to break content, all so that those people can have access to classes that allow them to do exactly that.



Even though at the time I thought that WOW was a huge departure from EQ1...and on a number of fronts, it was...over time I've come to realize that it's probably still similar enough to EQ1 design that a lot of our debates are largely meaningless. I don't think that the genre is stagnant because WOW was so different from EQ1 that a return to EQ1 design is what we need, I think the genre is stagnant because the opposite is true: even with the differences that exist WOW is still similar to EQ1, as is almost every other MMO that has come out in the last decade or so. The genre is stagnant because everything that comes out is a rehash of a rehash of a rehash, and playing the umpteenth iteration of a level, item and progression based MMO with only a few differences from other level, item and progression based MMOs is one of the most boring and soul crushing things that someone can do.
there's a ton of truth to what you posted, erronius. i'm not sure any game could really give me the same memories that EQ did. it was my first MMO so the whole virgin thing yadda, yadda, yadda. however, i'd like to see a game at least try some of the core mechanics that EQ had and at least see if a new game could capture at least some of those old fuzzy feelings. the three biggest ones for me would be 1) class interdependency- i just feel that in games today the classes are too homogenized. i liked that in EQ there was so much variety and you pretty much needed each other for different things (buffs, transportation, dmg, mana, SoW, rez, etc.) it shouldn't be a one size fits all kinda thing.
2) meaningful loot- 15 years later i can still tell you just about every single piece of loot i got for my wizard. not only that, i could tell you just about every good item in the game for any other class as well. loot in today's games is pretty much meaningless, because you'll out level it in a day or less, and every game is a loot pi?ata. rare loot works exactly the same way as winning at a casino does. it wouldn't be exciting if you hit the jackpot every time you pulled the lever. the thrill of maybe hitting that jackpot once in a great while is what keeps people coming back.
3) massive dungeons and death penalties- i lump these two together because without a death penalty, then the size of the dungeon wouldn't really matter. as much as people hate them, without a death penalty, no fear exists in the game, and without the fear of losing, the thrill of winning is nonexistent.
and that's it. if i could find a game with these three simple things i could at least see once and for all if any of the magic that existed in EQ could exist again. for all of its flaws and shittiness, vanguard actually came closer than any other game to making me want to log in and play again. i suppose that's why i was hoping and praying that maybe brad could get it right this time. i was wrong about brad, but i don't think i'm wrong that there are enough people out there that want a game like this that at some point someone will at least attempt it again.
 

Ambiturner

Ssraeszha Raider
16,040
19,500
Medding with spell book as you kited added so much drama, plus it made getting lv35 all the more awesome as you enjoyed no longer having to constantly keep a timer in your head and imagine how close the mob was to you before you got up and moved.

Being lost, finding new areas and trying to level was what EQ was about. Finding those little nooks and crannies, especially when ex packs were released and everyone was crowded along the beaten trail, going off of it and finding your own place that was empty was so fun, like doing Gargs in OOT or Aviaks in Lake Rathe. Plus it encouraged you to explore just to learn zones by hand to remember and not just have your face buried in the minimap - that was vital on the PvP servers as you could run circles around people unfamiliar with them, get them lost and kill them, or better yet, get them stumbling around, aggro mobs and then panic and then try to zone or at least find a part of the zone to die at that they remembered.


Who gives a fuck how bad things were as a newbie. You were soft as shit and died a ton. I assume you never played an SK - it was awesome finally getting your first spells only to sit at the bank clicking them like mad to skill them up and then afk while you got back mana without meditation.


Plus printing out tons of maps from EQatlas is the very essence of nostalgia.

Was all part of the fun of EQ, as contradictory as that sounds. The hard things made those rewards feel all the sweeter. And getting a res was far, far easier than trying to locate a necro to summon your corpse/help with you the loc corpse spell. Your average necro back in the day often didn't even know they had the summon corpse spell so you often had to camp the Ishva for them and give them the spell as payment, or worse, having to use a necro who knew what a PITA the ordeal was and charged an arm and a le for a corpse summon. all the while rubbing it in the entire time. Things like that, ressing, ports, clarity really encouraged you buddy up and befriend certain classes even if you were an anti-social soloing necro/druid.

I'd rather sit and camp a fucking named than spend hours mindlessly running instances pressing keys and doing content zoned out out of sheer habit. At least with an EQ camp you got to chat up with those in your group and that often was the charge of EQ and why those who criticize it's content have a ring of truth in their argument, it was the continuity making the best of things in spite of content. In WoW and other games you often could do group content without speaking to your party members at all and it's something an RL friend tried to do the most when he played, but even he had to interact with people on EQ even if he was a necro.



Oh, group class bitching! Try being a Necro, or especially a Druid when you needed to do group content when you had little to contribute to a party and thus had trouble getting people to help you out. That was made worse during Velious-PoP when Necros were nothing but a mana battery during raids while we druids were only useful for porting to the raid and spamming are shitty heals, at least Shamans had unique buffs/ could cure shit as good as a Cleric.
There's nothing stopping you from just taking a tack hammer to your balls while you play any current MMO
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
There's nothing stopping you from just taking a tack hammer to your balls while you play any current MMO
the things that made it frustrating and difficult is what made it great. you've obviously never accomplished anything difficult in your life or you'd know that.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
And not a damn one of yall would go through that shit again.

Everyone one of these wonderful nostalgic memories yall have about EQ is about the journey, and not the destination.

Those days will never happen again. This very crowd, right here, will find the absolute fastest way to level to get to end game and bypass 95% of all content in front of them.

Don't fucking say you wouldn't because this same crowd has proved that over the past 10 years in every MMO released.
I would.

The reason I stopped playing on emus though is the completely shit PvP community that remains on there and I just can't play on blue servers, even if I'm a crappy PvPer.

I must agree with you that most on here, or rather, most EQ vets in general, would minmax shit crazy and get to max lv as soon as possible. It was that mentality which went a long way to ruining VZTZ.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
Sorry... I'm confused. Which were these 'bugs' that made EQ 'playable'? The only real examples I can think of are FD splitting and swarm/agro kiting... The removal of either would have had little effect on EQ's gameplay.
I don't see how many raid zones could have been done without FD splitting while without aggro kiting Necros and Druid would have been useless even as soloers.