Path of Exile 2

Khane

Got something right about marriage
21,455
15,329
PoE1 has not been on rails since around the time Ward Loop showed up as a build. I think it's a pretty good example because in PoE2 Ward Loop would get nuked out of existence mid league. In PoE1 it (and builds like it) is allowed to thrive.

It seems to me there are 2 very different thought processes going on at GGG regarding PoE2. When PoE2 first released it seemed very much like they were actively encouraging Ward Loop style autobomber gameplay. So much so that they gave us all those meta Energy gems. I mean... they even put a Cast on Dodge Roll gem into the game. One school of thought at GGG clearly likes that type of build loadout, and when people used those energy gems, even exactly as intended, the other team at GGG said "NO FUCKING WAY" and nerfed them into oblivion.

There is a very clear tug of war going on at GGG, so much so that players, especially PoE1 vets, have no idea what will or won't be seen as intended interactions or overpowered.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
21,029
17,971
Literally every single player in POE2 spends 20% of their playtime fat rolling. How is that any better than everyone using Leap Slam, Flame Dash, or Blink Arrow?

Every league in POE2 up to this point was absolutely dominated by 2 or 3 builds because build diversity is so on the rails that once a small handfull of streamers figure out the one build that can actually get you through that slog of a campaign, everyone else flocks to it. So far, POE2's metas have been WAY less diversified than any POE1 league and its not even close.
The fat-rolling comparison isn't really equivalent. Movement skills like Leap Slam, Flame Dash, or Blink Arrow were optional optimizations layered on top of already-functional builds - fat rolling is a baseline consequence of early PoE2 tuning, not a solved mobility meta people are choosing because it's optimal. That's a pacing and balance issue, not evidence that the entire design philosophy is worse. Everyone fat rolling early doesn't replace build expression, it just highlights that early-game mobility values aren't where they need to be yet. Sprint did a LOT to help this.

As for metas being dominated by a few builds, that's less an indictment of "rails" and more a symptom of a young system with limited tuning passes. Early PoE1 leagues were also heavily solved once streamers cracked the numbers. The difference is that PoE1 had years of accumulated complexity and content bloat to disguise how narrow the meta actually was. PoE2 doesn't have that inertia yet, so when something is overtuned, it's more obvious.

Right now, the campaign slog amplifies this effect. When the early game is slow and punishing, players will naturally gravitate toward the few builds that brute-force it efficiently. That doesn't mean the underlying system can't support diversity, it means the onboarding and early balance are doing a terrible job of showcasing it (which is precisely why I keep bitching so much about the early-game). Narrow metas in PoE2 so far say more about unfinished tuning and front-loaded friction than they do about some irreversible flaw in the game's long-term design.
PoE1 has not been on rails since around the time Ward Loop showed up as a build. I think it's a pretty good example because in PoE2 Ward Loop would get nuked out of existence mid league. In PoE1 it (and builds like it) is allowed to thrive.
Ward Loop is actually a good example, but probably not in the way you're framing it. In PoE1 it's "allowed to thrive" largely because the game is so mature and so layered that GGG tolerates a certain amount of absurdity as long as it doesn't completely dominate everything else. That's less a philosophical endorsement and more a reality of maintaining a decade-old system where ripping out every degenerate interaction would cause more collateral damage than it's worth.

PoE2 isn't in that position yet. Early in a game's life, interactions like Ward Loop aren't quirky outliers, they'll start defining metas almost immediately. That's why something like it would get nuked mid-league in PoE2. Not because GGG hates creativity, but because letting an autobomber-style interaction set the tone this early would crowd out every other playstyle before the game even finds its footing. This is the very dangerous ground they were treading with minions, until reigning it in a bit.

The energy gem situation doesn't really prove a "tug of war" so much as iterative correction. Early EA clearly leaned too far in the direction of automated triggers, and once it became obvious how dominant they were, GGG pulled back hard. That's not unusual for early access IMO. It's exactly when you should be discovering where the guardrails need to be. PoE1 didn't have that luxury because it found out in live leagues and then lived with the consequences for years.

I do agree on one thing though - from a player perspective, the signaling has been messy. When you introduce things like Cast on Dodge Roll, it's reasonable for players to assume those interactions are being encouraged. If GGG wants tighter lanes, they need to communicate that intent more clearly and avoid baiting players with mechanics they're not prepared to support long-term. But uncertainty about what survives balance passes isn't evidence that PoE2 is on some uniquely hostile path. It's evidence that the game is still defining its boundaries. PoE1 feels permissive now because those boundaries were set years ago. PoE2 is still in the uncomfortable phase where they're being drawn in real time.
 

Sinzar

Trakanon Raider
3,151
269
I've been playing druid this league with the usual spectre minion build. I started as Shaman Druid because the 120 free spirit was enticing, and it was really great for leveling and early endgame. I've recently respecced to Oracle Druid though and it feels so much stronger for minions. From the unseen path hidden passive tree that Oracle gets, there's some amazing minion nodes. For example 40% better reservation for minions, a bunch of highly concentrated high value minion +damage nodes, and the ability to cherry pick notables without fully pathing to them from the entwined realities ascendancy node. What makes it really stand out for me though is the forbidden path node, which adds 20% of minion elemental damage as bonus chaos damage. That's amazing for powered zealots (the current meta spectre who just spam spark).

I don't have the experience or deep research to say what's the best class for minions, but I do have to say I'm loving the Oracle exclusive minion nodes as a Druid. I played Infernalist minions in 0.3, and if I were to go spectre minions again in 0.5 it would be on Oracle Druid.

The performance updates were overall positive for me too. I see noticeable improvement when the screen is densely packed in combat, but on the other hand they made the already long load times even longer in this patch.

Now for the actual 0.4 league mechanic itself... the temple is stupid. I was so hyped for it, because the IDEA of the temple sounds incredible. Build a dungeon, run it for great rewards, work towards the temple uberboss and get some neat loot. How great does that sound? Super cool!

Then I got to play it myself after league launch. While I did get like one or two upgrades from it during the campaign, now that I'm in maps holy shit is the temple a steaming pile of shit. For one thing, loot does not exist from the temple. I run six maps so I can do a temple run and I maybe walk away with two regal orbs and a guaranteed low level common unique worth maybe 1 exalt. That's it.

The building blocks are such RNG cancer. I'm level 92, mostly done atlas, and I've been able to fight the architecht once (while leveling in the campaign, so it didn't even count since you need to beat him in a 75+ zone to give real credit). Since then I've NEVER been able to path to him again because despite something like 20 more temple runs (which means 120 maps to grind that out), I've never been offered roads that could connect to the architecht's room. Also half the rooms I do place collapse after each run. Like holy shit I hate the temple now but I just want to fight Atziri at least once before I bail on the league... but at this rate I can't even get to the fucking architecht, and even once I eventually do luck my way into the right shaped roads which let me get to his room, then (according to the wiki), I'll have to THEN path to a newly spawned "key" chamber to unlock the door to Atziri, and THEN I'll have to build a path to actually get to Atziri.

At this rate 0.5 will be out before I make it to Atziri. Is that probably partly (or mostly) a skill issue with temple building... maybe or probably, but I put the blame on shitty mechanic design making it this complex and RNG for the player.

I want to love this temple mechanic so much, but I just can't
 

elidib

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,829
6,009
Agree, the temple is so retarded, and I could suggest a few different changes to fix it.

I think the simplest fix would just be for every room to have 4 entrances/exits, so that you can place any room/hallway next to any other room. This way you have the option of (1) pathing a straight line to the architect and then Atziri, or (2) you could build around the upgrade rooms to get better rewards from the rooms themselves.

There are other improvements I could suggest, but the above would at least fix the thing to be playable and rewarding.
 

1987

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
3,922
9,046
Temple was fine during the campaign. But it's dumb as fuck at endgame. You gave me a regal crafting bench? Sweet let's hope I'm still using blue gear at lvl 76 in t12 maps.

I'm assuming pathing is a problem too, but I haven't run one in a long while since loot/upgrades are non-existent.
 
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Penance

Avatar of War Slayer
9,532
17,224
God damn this game still fucking sucks. Even playing Poison PF campaign is still turbo aids. How do normal people play this game? You can just get absolutely fucking screwed with drops. Even checking vendor every level, picking up every bow and using all the tricks at my disposal I can't find a decent bow throughout all of act 3. No fucking jeweler drops. How did they possibly make the campaign a worse experience then POE1.