Riot Games MMO

Riot has fuckups like any other company, but to call the entire thing trash is reaching. The game is extremely successful and has a proven formula. It's really NOT dumbed down, but DoTA fanboys want to disparage it as much as possible simply because .... why???

If you watched Marc Merrill's candid interview with Reckful, he says a line that's 100% true: "League is nobody's first game".

Claiming it's a dumbed down game is just being ignorant. Dumbed down means it would appeal to even the newest gamer... like WoW did.

I'm cool with Dota, never played but watched some streams and some of the International, but just cause the game functions differently and has a darker theme doesn't mean it's more hardcore or "better".

Also, compared to the mass-market games like WoW/FortNite/etc... I wouldn't characterize LoL as "Cartoony", which was another "complaint" from the Dota community.

Arbitrary said:

That's a bit odd with League of Legends if you think about it. It was the first game for a bunch of us, at least this kind of game. Defense of the Ancients was niche and difficult to get started with while League was that style of game but accessible. This was the first big esport title for a lot of us as well. Back then it felt like you could just queue up with a bunch of your friends and just play. Over time the roster got bigger and the game more mechanically complex. It all just seems so serious.

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I think the statement means it's not anyone's first "game"... not "moba"... like young kids aren't going to dive into LoL ever, we all had gaming backgrounds with other RTS/FPS/MMOs... but a "first game" would be stuff like WoW, FN, Minecraft, etc... dumbed down enough for even the youngest kids to play.

James said:

Their core principals of play-counter play and limiting burden of knowledge impose a significant limit on their design scope, and are borne out of a philosophy that says you need to keep your mechanics dumb to cater to a wider variety of people. League of Legends Champions are objectively less diverse and interesting than Dota Heroes because of it.

I don't think Riot has a good enough design team to come up with a fresh new take on the MMO scene. They're going to copy something that already exists, and try to refine it according to their design standards, which are awful.

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Wow this is just patently false.

Riot has been Un-Dumbing every champion. No more point & click... everything is skill-shots & twitch movement.

Their philosophy has been to make things MORE complex, from Champions to the map.
They change the jungle every season.
They adjust Dragon/Baron every season.

They tweak experience gains, items, runes every season.

And the vast majority makes the game more and more complex.

The rune change made it "dumber"... but that was desired by mostly everyone.

And yes, they fuck up, but they continue to change things.

As Arbitrary just posted, the game is VASTLY different than 10 years ago. It's not a "dumb" game. What you perceive as their design philosophy is so vastly different than the reality.

zombiewizardhawk said:

LoL fanboys going all-out to defend Riot up in here.

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Why shouldn't they be defended?
It's a good game, they've pioneered esports in NA.
They make good products... so far. Only 1 game, would love to see more.
There are certainly worse gaming companies.

Personally I like Valve, Epic and Riot equally. We can do with less EA / Daybreak /etc

James said:

I'd say the second line directly counters the first line, and that you should qualify "skill-shots" differently. Using Enigma's Black Hole is totally instant, but pulling off a 5 hero black hole requires an incredible amount of skill that wouldn't have the same impact at all if you had to channel/telegraph it first. The key aspect to League of Legends "skill-shots" is that you are telegraphing your move so that your opponent can make a counter-play off of it, but is no more "skillful" than innate or instant abilities. Riot limits their design by developing only telegraphed abilities.

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A skill shot in LoL terms is simply an ability that must be "aimed". There are "instant" skill shots in League too, even though they have an animation, you'll never escape them without prediction. For example, Akali's rework made her Dash a skillshot (previously it was a point & click). There is no way you're going to "dodge" it after she casts, though you can still try to predict and "outplay" her.

There are just tons of skillshots that you will never escape if you wait for the "telegraph". Either the player is bad at aiming or the other player is predicting... both aspects require skill.

James said:

Any more or less skill than the awareness required to determine that your team is clumped too close together and Enigma isn't showing on the map? Riot has chosen to define "skill" in a manner that suits them, and they design their game around it while wearing blinders to anything that doesn't fit their definition. It's an awful philosophy.

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This makes no sense... there are plenty of times in League where you are dead if you clump too close.. i just can't even........

Annie+Flash+Ult
Brand Ult
Morgana Ult
Nunu in bush Ult
I can't even name every champion with some insane AoE instant Damage bullshit.

The variety of LoL champions covers most of the bases at this point. What I hear from DoTA is the CC is much longer and the lane economics are a lot different... AFAIK DoTA strives to feed a super-carry... in LoL you can have multiple carries on a team.

James said:

Dota has an incredibly fluid meta, I'd be very surprised if LoL's lane/champion set up is as fluid or more than Dota's, don't you have to have a jungler still? Champion vs Hero usage statistics would suggest that as well, with Dota's major tournament utilizing 95% of the hero pool compared to LoL's what, 60% at best?

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Yea League requires a jungler and their champion usage rates depend heavily on the most recent patch. For example, Aatrox was shit-tier for years, they put through 1 big patch that changes the entire meta, and he becomes god-tier... then they reworked him (The rework was already in process prior to the patch) and he's now "average".

The champion usage rate over an entire LCS season is pretty high.. 80-90%... but if you look at JUST the championship, which is on 1 patch, the rate is lower as you mention.

To me a lower usage means more niche champions... which seams true with LoL. You have shit like Ivern whom is a "support jungler" and Mordekaiser whom was their experiment of a "bruiser AD carry".

Very specific niche shit that doesn't always fly.

And they still have a crop of legacy champions that are way overdue for reworks: Nunu, Karthus

I don't know if a high usage is "good" or not. A rotating meta is nice, it can feel "different" throughout a season, whereas a consistent high usage means same champions ALL the time. Although short-term (patch-to-patch) it means generally the same champions used ... I don't really have a preference tbh.