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Shmoopy

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#81
Guess I'm not much into the genre but having tried them all:

HOTS >>>>> LOL >>>>>>>>>>> DOTA

Re-install LOL and DOTA every so often. After a couple 45 min slogs I remember the tedium. Not sure if anything has changed, but HOTS is the only one thats a chaotic brawl the whole game.
 

James

Blackwing Lair Raider
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#82
Ah, Heroes of the Storm, or the e-sport equivalent to competitive hop-scotch.
 

Daidraco

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#83
Ah, Heroes of the Storm, or the e-sport equivalent to competitive hop-scotch.
My minds blown that I havent realized you've been back on the forum, again. Wb
 

Teekey

Lord Nagafen Raider
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#84
Ghostcrawler Lane Swap / Queue Dodge / Whatever

I wanted to let you all know that I moved off the League of Legends team a few weeks ago to take on an expanded role. I am still very much at Riot, but I am no longer the lead designer on League. The new lead designer is Andrei “Meddler” Van Roon.

My new position at Riot is head of creative development. We don’t typically make a big deal about titles at Riot, however, I plan on still keeping up an active conversation with you all, so I wanted to explain a little bit about what this role means so you’ll have some insight into the kinds of topics I’ll be most effective at discussing.

We’ve been up front that we want to put the S in Riot Games, and I am helping with that effort. In addition, we have been taking Runeterra as a world more seriously, as you’ve probably realized with the release of the Ryze CG and the world map. While telling stories is really important to us (and I hope many of you), there is a limit to the kinds of stories we can tell in League of Legends without getting in the way of a competitive, multiplayer game. So, many of our stories will have to come through other mediums, and of course that possibly includes other games.
 

jayrebb

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#85

Himeo

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#86
I enjoyed his work on WoW but I know most people disliked him-- albeit a whole lot of memed-hatred, its difficult to determine how much legitimate hate he had.
He was Lead Systems Designer on WoW from 2008-2013. Other than leading the team that implemented the achievements system, what did he do?

Dungeon Finder?

Raid Finder?

Cross-Realm Groups?

That awful guild perks system?

Seems like all of the systems he implemented fucked over the MMO part of WoW.
 

Teekey

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#87
He was Lead Systems Designer on WoW from 2008-2013. Other than leading the team that implemented the achievements system, what did he do?

Dungeon Finder?

Raid Finder?

Cross-Realm Groups?

That awful guild perks system?

Seems like all of the systems he implemented fucked over the MMO part of WoW.
Other than guilds perks, perhaps, those are all legitimately good changes in my opinion.

But then again, I'm not one of those people desperately clinging to the idea of server "community". Couldn't care less about it.

In fact, I hope they eventually get to the point where there's no servers at all. Having to transfer to join a raiding guild is dumb as fuck.
 
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zombiewizardhawk

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#88
So you want a game that isn't actually an MMO, then. There's plenty of those out there, I wish you people would stop fucking it up for the rest of us.
 

Dom

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#89
So you want a game that isn't actually an MMO, then. There's plenty of those out there, I wish you people would stop fucking it up for the rest of us.
Servers are not required for a MMO to be a MMO. By your definition, EVE isn't an MMO.
 

zombiewizardhawk

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#90
Yes because given the context of his post (dungeon finder, raid finder, etc all being "good" additions and server "community" being shit) it would take a moron to infer that he was talking about more than actual split servers with his comments about "no servers at all"...

You know what you have when you sit in a lobby waiting on a queue to pop for an instance? A game like LoL or Diablo or Starcraft or a million other games that aren't MMOs.
 

Teekey

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#91
You know what you have when you sit in a lobby waiting on a queue to pop for an instance? A game like LoL or Diablo or Starcraft or a million other games that aren't MMOs.
I don't really see that much of a difference between that and sitting in a city and spamming LFG/LFM messages. Atleast with queues you can do other shit while looking for a group.

Regardless, queued content is like the lowest form of content anyways, and are perfect for who they're aimed at, casuals. Anything beyond casual content requires manually making a group (whether through chat or LFG tool).
 
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Dom

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#92
Yes because given the context of his post (dungeon finder, raid finder, etc all being "good" additions and server "community" being shit) it would take a moron to infer that he was talking about more than actual split servers with his comments about "no servers at all"...

You know what you have when you sit in a lobby waiting on a queue to pop for an instance? A game like LoL or Diablo or Starcraft or a million other games that aren't MMOs.
Fair enough, I figured you were mostly responding to his server community bit.

I have to ask though, what is it about the the dungeon and raid finders you take issue with? Is it that it's an automatic system? Too low a barrier of entry? Because I've seen people argue against them many times and then don't have much to say when the LFG tool is pointed out. Both systems are impersonal and are not very far from instanced lobbies.

Sitting around in Ironforge spamming chat channels trying to get a group together for Gnomer was never fun, and did fuck all to encourage multiplayer communities. People would rarely talk in either the formation of the group or the actual running, other than teaching a newbie what was what. Personal connections always seemed to be made within a guild format, or happenstance with a random in the world.

Maybe I just can't understand these arguments because I never played EQ (I was playing MUD's at the time) and so I don't know what that was like, but after over a decade of seeing people take part in the EQ circlejerk on these forums, it's abundantly clear that they are very blinded by nostalgia, and so I have to take it all with a grain of salt.

I do absolutely agree that MMO's need more reasons to communicate and band together, but I don't think queues are the cause of that need, especially as more games are putting the harder difficulties outside the realm of automatic grouping (Mythics, Fractals etc...)
 

zombiewizardhawk

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#93
So your argument is queued dungeons/content is only good for casuals and you have to find a group to do hard content, but games should remove forcing people to find groups to do that content? Is there even an MMO on the market that has servers that don't have raid guilds on them (only one i've played in the last few years is BDO)?

Queued dungeons also promote trolls and jackasses because there are no consequences. Nothing says fun quite like spending an hour to find a dungeon group and then having the 4man premade vote-kick you so their dps buddy doesn't have competition for the drop from the boss or having the tank just dick around and troll for 10-15 minutes and then leave while you wait another hour for the next tank to pop in the queue hoping he's not also a troll.

I didn't play EQ super hardcore like most of the people on these forums, the highest I ever got was a 38 warrior on some pve server and a 29 shaman on, I think, Solusek Ro (the 3way faction pvp one). I spent way more of those years playing UO/muds/other games.

Edit: As far as communication and stuff goes, I don't think anything will ever change the lack of that. That's just the way things are. Some people like to talk to others, some don't, some only talk about stupid stuff. It's even worse these days with the majority of people refusing to type to communicate and instead insisting people use discord/ts/whatever. I can't stand having to sit in discord listening to people say pointless retarded shit or breath/cough into their mic cause they don't use PTT etc.
 
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Teekey

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#94
So your argument is queued dungeons/content is only good for casuals and you have to find a group to do hard content, but games should remove forcing people to find groups to do that content?
No, my argument is that I'm not so delusional to think that there's some huge difference between grabbing randoms from city chat and having a queue grab randoms for you.

But overall, I don't really give a fuck because I don't really play that weak ass content once I outgear it (essentially, within a week or 2 of the expansion being released), except for maybe a daily/weekly reward. The queued content is so mindless, it's appropriate for it to be queued for 95% of an expansion. But for the casuals that only play that stuff, I think it's exactly what they want.

And guess what, you can still manually create a group for whatever the fuck you want. Nothing is stopping you.

Is there even an MMO on the market that has servers that don't have raid guilds on them (only one i've played in the last few years is BDO)?
I transferred from a low population server to a high population server last year after holding out for a long ass while. Just the guild I joined on the new server literally had more 8/8 Mythic raiding teams than my entire server had combined.

So yeah, it does make a pretty big difference to be on a good server.

Queued dungeons also promote trolls and jackasses because there are no consequences. Nothing says fun quite like spending an hour to find a dungeon group and then having the 4man premade vote-kick you so their dps buddy doesn't have competition for the drop from the boss or having the tank just dick around and troll for 10-15 minutes and then leave while you wait another hour for the next tank to pop in the queue hoping he's not also a troll.
The same shit can happen with manually made groups. The leader and/or people with the numbers have the control.

You have yet to really make a cogent argument for why it's better.
 

zombiewizardhawk

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#95
I transferred from a low population server to a high population server last year after holding out for a long ass while. Just the guild I joined on the new server literally had more 8/8 Mythic raiding teams than my entire server had combined.

So yeah, it does make a pretty big difference to be on a good server.
You mean a populated server. That's more a problem with the way MMOs go these days (tons of players for 2 months then everyone quits). I dunno what the proper solution might be since I can't imagine it's possible to stuff the flood onto one server (can you imagine 50k people all trying to run around one zone doing the quests?) and I doubt you can convince devs they should merge servers as the population dwindles when it seems like they'd much rather charge people money to transfer servers.
The same shit can happen with manually made groups. The leader and/or people with the numbers have the control.

You have yet to really make a cogent argument for why it's better.
Uh... Not sure if serious? That's the entire point, if it's a manual made group with a static population server they're going to get a shit reputation after doing it a few times and face consequences. There are no consequences in dungeon finders. Once TimmyTheRetardedTank pisses off half the server, nobody is going to group with him after a while. If TheThreeAmigos get a reputation for kicking people right before bosses to horde the loot then eventually they won't be able to get randoms to fill out their groups.
 

Dom

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#96
Queued dungeons also promote trolls and jackasses because there are no consequences. Nothing says fun quite like spending an hour to find a dungeon group and then having the 4man premade vote-kick you so their dps buddy doesn't have competition for the drop from the boss or having the tank just dick around and troll for 10-15 minutes and then leave while you wait another hour for the next tank to pop in the queue hoping he's not also a troll.
I can't tell if you're replying to me or teekay, so I'm just going to point out something in response to this and then move on.

Manually made groups suffer from these issues too. If you sit around in a city getting a group together, make the effort to go travel to the dungeon, get in, and find out that one of the dudes is a glue sniffer, or afk, or pulling extra shit, you still have to take the time to get rid of them, head back to the city and wait to recruit a replacement, all the while hoping that the other members of the group have the patience to not ditch. And you also have no protections against them from kicking you if you joined them. A group finder does nothing to avoid these problems.

As for the blacklisting potentials of it being manual and server-only: I can't count the number of times I was forced to group with people who outright ninjad shit from me previously despite me spreading the word about it, even a hunter that ninjad the fucking cloth devout shoulders. People don't like dealing with other people's drama and are more likely to kick you than the asshole if you make a stink about it. Now, I'm sure that leading-edge content is a different matter, but such a small amount of a playerbase deals with that shit to make it a near irrelevance hen discussing the problems as a whole.

But, all of these issues can be avoided by finding a good guild and going balls-deep into that. But that is a personal choice to pursue, and not all guilds are created equal.
 

Teekey

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#97
Uh... Not sure if serious? That's the entire point, if it's a manual made group with a static population server they're going to get a shit reputation after doing it a few times and face consequences. There are no consequences in dungeon finders. Once TimmyTheRetardedTank pisses off half the server, nobody is going to group with him after a while. If TheThreeAmigos get a reputation for kicking people right before bosses to horde the loot then eventually they won't be able to get randoms to fill out their groups.
People parrot this shit ad nauseam, but I've never really seen it play out in reality. I knew ninja looters and assholes in Vanilla WoW that would still fill up groups to do UBRS runs with no issues even though they were 'well-known' for being such.

I'm not saying it never happens, but in any decent sized MMO, there's just too much noise for anyone to stop and give a shit about that kind of stuff. Unless someone personally gets wronged, they just don't really give that much of a shit to track it. They just want to kill things and loot items. Maybe in EverQuest with tiny server populations, but EverQuest probably had some of the biggest assholes I've ever encountered in an MMO. You could grief people FAR beyond what you can even imagine in modern MMOs. But even then, from what I experienced back in the day, all it took was having the right group of friends/guild and you can get by just fine.


And at the end of the day, making a new character isn't really crazy, either.
 
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Dom

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#98
I knew ninja looters and assholes in Vanilla WoW that would still fill up groups to do UBRS runs with no issues even though they were 'well-known' for being such.
I seem to recall there being a video back in vanilla made by one dude that ninja'd a whole lot of shit over and over again, including the majordomo chest several times. All on one server of course. Easy enough to do on one of the more populated servers without word going too far, and that's not to mention the many communities based around language that wouldn't really pay attention to what happened outside of it, but would still need to PUG people.