Scottish Independence

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Jait

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Surprised there isn't a thread on this here already. For those that don't know the Scots will be voting for their independence from the United Kingdom on September 18th. For Americans this would be like Texas declaring their independence. Or maybe Alaska, but with a decent economy.

Thoughts from our resident Brits and Europeans?

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ZyyzYzzy

RIP USA
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FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOMMMMMM

Edit for seriousness - if they do vote for independence it'd be more of a pseudo-independence. They still want to use the pound and want to bargin some say into how the currency is controlled.
 

Alex

Still a Music Elitist
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I know other provinces in Europe are looking at this closely - particularly areas in Spain.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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What's the story behind the Scottish wanting independence from GB at this point besides general rabble rabble? I thought Ireland was all the religion issues but Scotland was fairly chummy with the crown in recent centuries.
 

Quineloe

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What's the story behind the Scottish wanting independence from GB at this point besides general rabble rabble? I thought Ireland was all the religion issues but Scotland was fairly chummy with the crown in recent centuries.
Cameron is a fascist piece of shit and dragging the whole nation down with him. No one votes for his party in Scotland, but since they're just 5 million people they don't have enough weight. Scotland also provides 11% of the nations GDP, so they're above average in productivity, yet this is ignored in London.

Another thing is that London keeps most farmer subsidies down in England and the Scottish farmers receive less than anyone else in the EU, only 128? per hectare of worked land, for comparison the average in the UK is ?225, a German farmer receives ?298 and a Maltese Farmer a stunning ?640.
So basicaly the English are still stealing big time from the Scots.

pseudo-independence.
That's what they have today. They'll be absolutely independent and if they want to (re)join the EU, they have transition to the ?uro anyways. Ideally with the freedom loving Scottish people no longer bothering London with their votes, the Tories can gain full power and establish their so beloved Nazi state, leave the EU and live in the poverty that is sure to follow when the entire financial sector abandons London for Frankfurt a.M. In return we can send them instructions on how to goose-step.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
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What's the story behind the Scottish wanting independence from GB at this point besides general rabble rabble? I thought Ireland was all the religion issues but Scotland was fairly chummy with the crown in recent centuries.
It's been building up since the Thatcher governments of the 1980's where pretty much everything north of Watford was written off, and Scotland especially suffered.

I think however its a case of heart versus head. Their hearts might want independence but TBH they'll be much better off as part of the UK unless they somehow manage to have their own currency. If they stick with the pound they'll have no say in the exchange rate or the money supply, so it will be a weak kind of independence.
 

Quineloe

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So no one actually heard him say it and there's no video or audio recording, just some "reports" from unnamed sources.

I'm also pretty sure that there will be more than enough people willing to loan an independent Scotland money at rates far below payday loans... After all, the country is rich on resources. Norway seems to do pretty well under the same circumstances and a tiny population.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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See Quebec. It's short sighted nationalism. In a globally competitive economy breaking up your country can't possibly help your standard of living and competitiveness. I can understand and appreciate nationalistic pride and heritage, but it's essentially shooting yourself in the foot just so you can take pride in hoisting your own flag. The Canadian Frenchies said they didn't want to pay back debt either, while simultaneously still being allowed to use a Canadian passport and currency.
 

Quineloe

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See Quebec. It's short sighted nationalism. In a globally competitive economy breaking up your country can't possibly help your standard of living and competitiveness. I can understand and appreciate nationalistic pride and heritage, but it's essentially shooting yourself in the foot so you can take pride in hoisting your own flag.
Tiny countries work. Again: Norway. Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland. They seem to work a whole lot better than any of the 100 million + people meganations.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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Tiny countries work. Again: Norway. Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland. They seem to work a whole lot better than any of the 100 million + people meganations.
Tiny countries that have been around for hundreds of years.. Break up Britain (or Canada) in 2014 and it will destabilize the economy and foreign investment. Just look at what you've "predicted" is in store for London. Do you think they will suffer this prediction while Scotland becomes some Utopia?
 

Quineloe

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Tiny countries that have been around for hundreds of years.. Break up Britain (or Canada) in 2014 and it will destabilize the economy and foreign investment. Just look at what you've "predicted" is in store for London. Do you think they will suffer this prediction while Scotland becomes some Utopia?
The difference is that the financial sector in London is all vultures and nothing of value is produced. They can be anywhere, and if the UK leaves the EU (which will become more likely after Scotland leaves and the tory-fascists get even more seats), they have no reason to remain in London.

Scotland on the other hand has access to valuable resources. Sure, some foreign investors will stay away, but there's plenty that will want to step in.

Small countries can work even better with Globalization. Isn't that the whole point of it? Without open borders and free trade across nations, thousands of tiny countries would be in terrible shape, just like it was in the middle ages and mercantilism.
 

Chris

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Alex Salmond has said live on TV that Scotland won't take on any UK liabilities if they don't get what they belive is their fair share of the assets. He means that if he doesn't get control over the currency he isn't paying any of the debts.

Basically since Tony Blair lied about Iraq and the banking crisis, there is a general feeling that politics is shit and we want a way out. So charismatic guys like Alex Salmond (Scottish Prime Minister), Boris Johnson (London Mayor) and Nigel Farage (Leader of the majority of our European representatives) are picking up votes. Add to that the percentage of Scotland that hates England forever because and you have a new country possibly appearing.

Unfortunatly for Scotland, England is 86% of the country and if we have anyone half way decent in charge if independence happens, Scotland is going to get royally screwed over - and for real this time:
1) They want control of the currency ("Currency Union"). What the fuck? How is a foreign country having half the say on your currency going to work, especially with a 90-10 population/economy split? The UK refused the Euro for the same reasons we will refuse this.
2) 90% of the customers of most Scottish companies are going to become foreign and possibly subject to export taxes and exchange rates, guess were they are going to move their headquaters after independence?
3) They want to automatically join the EU. While the UK can shurg off losing Scotland, Spain cannot lose Catalonia as it's half their economy and will likely cause trouble and make them unable to join. This has been confirmed by one of outgoing EU Presidents.
4) All countries joining the EU for about a decade or so have had to join the Euro and Schengen (free movement without passports) no exceptions. As the UK isn't in Schengen we will have to build a border fence, which we can because the far north of England is an underpopulated wilderness. I think that this opt out is the sole thing we should help Scotland with, we have an alternative called the Common Travel Area which is the same thing but just with UK and Ireland. Unfortunatly this probably won't happen as Alex Salmond wants to mass import foreigners into Scotland to boost the population since they have 96% white people.
5) Scotland wants to join NATO but disarm half of it's nuclear deterrant since the UK one is hidden in some scottish loch which we are unable to replicate anywhere else. Ironically the only unpopulated part of England where we could build something to house it is next to the Scottish border! Don't think that this will happen.
6) Since they won't get this "Currency Union" they want (I thought they wanted independence?), they'll not pay any debts and so even though the UK has committed to paying it, it'll still be seen as a default.
7) Alex Salmond wants more than he is letting on, a few years ago he wanted to get rid of the Queen and join the Euro. Expect expensive bullshit bilingual signs in gaelic which nobody can actually read, like Ireland and Wales suffer at the moment.
8) The most scottish political party in the UK will be permanently out of power as a big chunk of their voters will vanish, so you'll see more scotland unfriendly diplomacy from the UK.
9) Scotland's national dish is "Deep Fried Mars Bar", it's a chocolate bar covered in fat and oil. All of their oil revenues will be going into keeping their population alive. They already get higher than average money per person than the rest of the UK and have things the rest of us don't have like free University fees. Are they going to nationalise the oil rigs or tax it?
10) Since Alex Salmond want's Scotland to be like Norway etc, people and buisnesses will flee to England to escape the tax.

TLDR: Independence is going to massivly benefit England and Scotland will be providing years of failiure drama. Saying that, to me Scotland is part of the country so I don't want them to leave even though I'll benefit if they do.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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The difference is that the financial sector in London is all vultures and nothing of value is produced. They can be anywhere, and if the UK leaves the EU (which will become more likely after Scotland leaves and the tory-fascists get even more seats), they have no reason to remain in London.

Scotland on the other hand has access to valuable resources. Sure, some foreign investors will stay away, but there's plenty that will want to step in.

Small countries can work even better with Globalization. Isn't that the whole point of it? Without open borders and free trade across nations, thousands of tiny countries would be in terrible shape, just like it was in the middle ages and mercantilism.
Well, if you want to argue (or more likely don't care) and say "fuck London and the tories and let those vultures suffer" while simultaneously ignoring not only the global economic impact this will have, as well as the impact it will have on the citizens of the UK, then I guess you're right. Though I don't share your prediction that Scotland will come out for the better (at least in the near future), even if you are correct, we both seem to agree that this will have a destabilizing and very negative effect on the rest of the UK. Your obvious distaste for the conservative capitalist "vultures" in London is obviously so strong it overpowers the pragmatic decision to remain united. Put down the Che Guevera T-shirt for a second and realize what you're proposing..
 

Flank_sl

shitlord
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Since when are the tories fascists? Also, Scotland provides about 9% of the UK GDP, not 11%. However, Scotland does have a better GDP per capita than the UK average (which is not saying much, as we have shitty GDP per capita). Also, the tories do not want to leave the EU, but they are willing to have a referendum on the matter because a significant number of their voters do want to leabe the EU. You seem to be confusing the tories with UKIP, but they are completely different political parties.

The fact is that we don't know what Scotland would be like after independence. Politicians on both sides are waiting until after the vote before they work out the actual details, so it is a case of scottish nationalism versus fear of change.

I know other provinces in Europe are looking at this closely - particularly areas in Spain.
The Spanish situation is very different. Catalan is a much larger portion of the Spanish economy that Scotland is to the UK. Spain will never allow Catalan a vote to leave.
 

Quineloe

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Since when are the tories fascists?
December 6, 2005.

Well, if you want to argue (or more likely don't care) and say "fuck London and the tories and let those vultures suffer" while simultaneously ignoring not only the global economic impact this will have, as well as the impact it will have on the citizens of the UK, then I guess you're right. Though I don't share your prediction that Scotland will come out for the better (at least in the near future), even if you are correct, we both seem to agree that this will have a destabilizing and very negative effect on the rest of the UK. Your obvious distaste for the conservative capitalist "vultures" in London is obviously so strong it overpowers the pragmatic decision to remain united. Put down the Che Guevera T-shirt for a second and realize what you're proposing..
These people do nothing but blow up economy bubbles and profit from the fallout when those bubbles burst. Just like in the latest Brown thread, when black people loot, they smash windows, white people loot by destroying the whole economy. Every ounce of hate they get is perfectly deserved and I can fully understand why the Scots want to get away from a Tory government that clings to this "industry" like a needy child to their helicopter mother.
 

fanaskin

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Tiny countries work. Again: Norway. Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland. They seem to work a whole lot better than any of the 100 million + people meganations.
massive oil wealth, massive old money wealth like kings and princes of europe money, 85% of their gdp is through banking, massive banking wealth

sure being a tiny country pays off if you get oil rich in norway (or say qatar) or you function as a place for rich or ultra rich people to legally stash their money in secret or favorable conditions..
 

Quineloe

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massive oil wealth, massive old money wealth like kings and princes of europe money, 85% of their gdp is through banking, massive banking wealth

sure being a tiny country pays off if you get oil rich in norway (or say qatar) or you function as a place for rich or ultra rich people to stash their money.
So since Scotland also is oil rich, you're basically agreeing with me?