Shadowrun Returns

Well, shotguns being too powerful needed to be addressed. They just overdid it is all.

SMGs seem a little better as they don't empty their clips quite as fast, they're just sub-optimal now instead of "do not use".

Part of the issue is in proper Shadowrun, you can't walk around with an assault rifle stuffed in your pants. In this, I'm walking around disguised as a janitor with an assault rifle on my back and two heavily armed drones following me around and no one notices.

Maybe someone should get on the Batphone to these guys and tell them to shift all the special abilities one step to the right for each step "lower" in the chart they are from pistols to maybe require a bit more investment to get the bigger guns to really shine? So mages and deckers and such can invest a few points into pistol and get good, but if you want to be good with the shotguns or rifles you need a higher investment, reserving it for samurai, etc.

Or come up with a way to implement concealability as a weapon stat for modules. Like you can't bring in weapons above concealability X for certain missions.

Gavinrad_sl said:

Or come up with a way to implement concealability as a weapon stat for modules. Like you can't bring in weapons above concealability X for certain missions.

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Which is kind of rough, as they probably don't want to say "Sorry, your rifle-rigger is basically useless this mission as all he can do is bring a handgun." It kind of cuts both ways.

This is one of the reasons riggers were traditionally a tricky choice in the table top, as there were some missions they just weren't very useful on at all, the trade off being they were amazing on certain other missions (Car chase! Full drone assault!). Its a matter if your player is willing to handle that kind of trade off and your GM is willing to pay attention to it.

Zhaun_sl said:

Which is kind of rough, as they probably don't want to say "Sorry, your rifle-rigger is basically useless this mission as all he can do is bring a handgun." It kind of cuts both ways.

This is one of the reasons riggers were traditionally a tricky choice in the table top, as there were some missions they just weren't very useful on at all, the trade off being they were amazing on certain other missions (Car chase! Full drone assault!). Its a matter if your player is willing to handle that kind of trade off and your GM is willing to pay attention to it.

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I have no sympathy for this. If you set up your character in such a way that you can't do anything subtle, I would consider it my duty as a GM to fuck with you as much as possible until you built a character that was more sensible. Metal detectors and security patdowns EVERYWHERE.

I finally got the time to play through SRR now and I definitely enjoyed it. I think the length of the main story arc was fine. Had it been a full price game I would probably have expected more side missions though. I played after the "shotgun nerf" but I still found shotguns the best weapon in many situations.

Duppin_sl said:

I have no sympathy for this. If you set up your character in such a way that you can't do anything subtle, I would consider it my duty as a GM to fuck with you as much as possible until you built a character that was more sensible. Metal detectors and security patdowns EVERYWHERE.

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Have to agree with Duppin here, and it's not unique to Shadowrun, pretty much every modern/semi-futuristic game should go the same way. Unless it's accepted that you're playing a very unsubtle and straightforward shoot-em-up style of game, anyone who generates a character that can do nothing but fire heavy weapons and soak damage should be prepared for having absolutely nothing to do during certain stretches of a run/mission. I've played the weapon specialist for a group several times (not the literal weapon specialist pre-gen), and I've never once just gone with the twinked out cyber-monster. At the very least I make him stealthy too, so he can perform basic surveillance, and if my primary weapon style is something heavier than an SMG, I make sure to have a respectable pistol skill as well.

Granted, most shadowruns tend to be pretty well pre-researched by your Johnson, so there isn't always a lot of investigation and preparation that needs doing beforehand. Depends a lot on your GM I guess.

Shadowrun is one of the better systems for playing by post or in IRC though.

Duppin_sl said:

I have no sympathy for this. If you set up your character in such a way that you can't do anything subtle, I would consider it my duty as a GM to fuck with you as much as possible until you built a character that was more sensible. Metal detectors and security patdowns EVERYWHERE.

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Which is all well and good if you tell people up front not to play Riggers because you don't think they're "sensible". I just recall them rarely being very good at a much else other than "rigger-ing" due to the required skill and cyber costs of the role. Screwing someone who is willing to take a largely support role out of occasional limelight seems kind of dickish to me though.

Yeah, if you think riggers can't be built so they can't be at least somewhat helpful when they can't have drones out, you're bad at Shadowrun.

By your logic, nobody should play deckers either because they are only in the "limelight" when they're in the Matrix.

Fuck, I'm agreeing with Duppin. Doesn't matter what character you built, but if you better be at least passable in a stealth/subtle setting. Be it pistol skill, unarmed, security systems, fast talking, SOMETHING. Even your 15 body troll sam should probably have concealed razors and some cyber combat at the least.

A lack of a concealment stat and the general lack of security systems (cams, motion, alarms, etc) was probably my biggest issue with the game overall. The solution to nearly everything in the game was just carry the biggest guns you can.

I feel kind of left out then. Beat it with a pistol wielding mage (my character), a pistol wielding shaman, an smg decker, and either a rifle sam or a rigger. This is of course for runs that didn't require story npcs.

Ronne_sl said:

A lack of a concealment stat and the general lack of security systems (cams, motion, alarms, etc) was probably my biggest issue with the game overall. The solution to nearly everything in the game was just carry the biggest guns you can.

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This is what is killing me with the game... the total lack of anything to really to anchor the game as a Shadowrun game. I remember an add for Shadowrun in a magazine when I was 8 or 9; it was of a group of runners with various low key weapons, trench coats, and punk hair styles huddled in an alley guarding or scouting for their decker whom was jacked into what looked like an ATM.

At least as far as the official module is concerned I haven't gotten anywhere close to that feeling of "running" and always being one slip away from getting shot or busted. I'd go so far to say that at points it feels more like a middling quality-level XCOM battle converter.

reviews on this game are so mixed! I dont know if i should buy this or dragon age.

getting this game when it goes on a good sale is the best bet. Complete user generated content and bug fixes won't happen for a few months.

I personally enjoyed it, but a big part of that was nostalgia.

thx! so annoying how some sites give it 8 or 9 out of 10, and then i read user reviews saying it was really weak with terrible combat and only average story.

I wouldn't call it terrible combat, just really easy with some bugs. Story is a great throwback to some old school Shadowrun metaplots too.

@ Sulrn That picture is the old cover art for the First and Second edition main rulebook.

hmm intresting thanks, I think I might get baldurs get enhanced though.

Gavinrad_sl said:

I wouldn't call it terrible combat, just really easy with some bugs. Story is a great throwback to some old school Shadowrun metaplots too.

@ SulrnThat picture is the old cover art for the First and Second edition main rulebook.

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Yup. Haven't seen it in ages, but remembered it from his description.

Duppin_sl said:

I have no sympathy for this. If you set up your character in such a way that you can't do anything subtle, I would consider it my duty as a GM to fuck with you as much as possible until you built a character that was more sensible. Metal detectors and security patdowns EVERYWHERE.

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Part of the GM's job is also to help and advise during character creation. You can't punish a player for making a character that you allowed in the first place! Same goes with players joining a group with a character made with another GM: adjust the scenario, adjust the character or have a new one made, but don't allow the character only to fuck with him.

Sure, but if the guy just refuses to give himself options in lower-force situations because he wants to roll the highest damage numbers possible, it's up to the GM to show him the error of his ways.