Should you tip the waitress and how much thread

Cad_sl said:

Sorry, this is just completely wrong. The same amount of money tipless would be coming into the restaurant. Your gross receipts wouldn't be affected at all. Acting like SOMETHING WOULD HAVE TO GIVE BROS is just silly.

The only even kinda-sensible thing you've said is that due to tax evasion, waiters would make a little less if their income were legit. Guess what sport, "tax evasion is the cornerstone of our business!" isn't a selling point. Suck it up. You want to see how much I paid in fucking taxes last year? Fuck waiters.

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No it's not wrong. If you assume 20% tips and a plate cost $20; in a shift to a tipless world the extra $4 you would tack on to that plate would not pay for the 5-8 times increase to labor for the front of your house. I've already explained where those additional costs come from. A business can't simple go, "I'm just going to move this 20% margin increase and put it directly into the waiter's pocket!" I even outlined the cause and effects of what increase front of the house labor would do to a restaurant: smaller portions, decrease in service quality, large increase to prices. One or all could happen in that scenario.

Draegan_sl said:

This whole "fucking over their employees" and other rationale you have going on is a completely weird infatuation. Why do you feel it odd that instead of increased food costs you have to tip based on performance. I don't really care about some unofficial ted talk someone found, I'm talking about you.

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Because in no other industry am I expected to tip based on "performance". Retail sails is a perfect example. If you're in a high end clothing store buying a suit or some shit, or even a shoe store buying some runners, the salesperson who is helping you can have a massive impact on your experience for good or bad. They don't have a fucking cup at the till asking you to tip. Depending on the store they might be on commission, but that's between the business and it's employees. Again, no other industry expects it's own customers to subsidize the wages of it's employees as a matter of course.

The retail industry plans for seasonal swings in needed labor. It's built in to the annual projects for cost. It's called running a business. You missed the whole point of my post. If every restaurant in a state (or large geographic area) suddenly had to go tip-less and go to a straight paid salary, what do you think would happen? This is a real question and not like "what if it was never like this way".

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There'd be some upheaval initially, sure. Some restaurants might have a hard time coping and go out of business. Prices would rise if you ignore the cost of tipping in that comparison. But overall in the wider economy, it would be a blip. People would keep spending the same amount of money on dining as they do, and because they were already tipping, nothing much will change.

Lejina_sl said:

Flash news: there are restaurants outside North America.

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This was discussed earlier. Try to keep up.

Eomer_sl said:

Then that's what they'll have to pay. Let the market decide. And again, every other fucking country on the planet outside of the US and Canada (with a couple other exceptions) don't have a tipping system. Yet, bizarrely enough, they manage to pay their workers enough to retain them. And generally the service is pretty much the same.

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I'm not a world traveler, but I'm going to look up a bunch of cities to see what their tipping habits are:

1) London: 10-15% -Tipping in London - Traveller Information - visitlondon.com
2) Paris/France: 15% service charge is added to your bill. It is also recommended you leave an additional 10-20% as servers don't often get that extra 15% -How to Leave Tips in Paris
3) Spain: 10% -Spain: Tipping Etiquette - TripAdvisor
4) Italy: Nothing! - Servers are poor in this country.How to Approach Tipping in Rome, Revised | Parla Food
5) Germany: 5-10% but servers are paid more there -Germany: Tipping Etiquette - TripAdvisor
6) Hong Kong: 10% is added to the bill as a service fee - China proper: no tipping. -China: Tipping Etiquette - TripAdvisor
7) India: 5-10% is customary -India: Tipping Etiquette - TripAdvisor


So.... I dunno what to tell you.

Eomer_sl said:

Then that's what they'll have to pay. Let the market decide. And again, every other fucking country on the planet outside of the US and Canada (with a couple other exceptions) don't have a tipping system. Yet, bizarrely enough, they manage to pay their workers enough to retain them. And generally the service is pretty much the same.

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No they don't have a tipping system. They just charge 50-300% more than a restaurant in North America does for the same meal in almost every first-world country on the planet.

Market and cultural realities in North America make it extremely difficult for independents to compete. Chains take advantage of massive economies of scale that simply don't exist in other countries to satisfy the populace's desire for extremely cheap food that they can access extremely often. It's already a struggle to compete with the likes of TGIFridays or The Cheesecake Factory from a food cost/portion perspective. Imagine if independents now had to compete from a labour cost perspective? Might as well just shut them all down now and replace them with Taco Bells.

Lejina_sl said:

You havnt said anything to deny the existence of restaurant in a tipless world.

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I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

Draegan_sl said:

No it's not wrong. If you assume 20% tips and a plate cost $20; in a shift to a tipless world the extra $4 you would tack on to that plate would not pay for the 5-8 times increase to labor for the front of your house. I've already explained where those additional costs come from. A business can't simple go, "I'm just going to move this 20% margin increase and put it directly into the waiter's pocket!" I even outlined the cause and effects of what increase front of the house labor would do to a restaurant: smaller portions, decrease in service quality, large increase to prices. One or all could happen in that scenario.

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You ought to tell this guy that he's running his business in to the ground then:The end of restaurant tipping? - MarketWatch

Scott Rosenberg, owner of Sushi Yasuda, another no-tip restaurant in New York, believes that diners are simply tired of the meal-ending ritual of "grading" a server and then doing the math based on that judgment. "The meal should be there for you to enjoy without doing this calculus," says Scott Rosenberg.

To be clear, such restaurants are still paying their waiters - and the customers are still paying for the service as part of the overall bill. When Scott Rosenberg did away with tipping some months back, he raised menu prices by 15% to cover costs.

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Lejina_sl said:

Try to keep up.

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No, try to correct your fucking grammar. That sentence is an abortion.

Ive got different types of restaurants where Im from that pay their wait staff by the hour and of course, the restaurants that pay their wait staff through tips & wages. Both types of these restaurants have a wide assortment of food plates on their menu. Some gourmet, some lower end steak houses. Ive also Bar Tended at a Gourmet restaurant, when I was in School, where I would also help with paper work. Costs may go up, but it really only falls down to how much, or how little an owner is willing to make in pure profit from the Restaurant in my opinion.

The place I worked at would make between three and four thousand in profit on a busy day. Busy days ranging from Thursday to Monday at this particular establishment. Tuesday and Wednesday, profits would cut down to one to three thousand, but the wait staff would be drastically reduced on those two days as well. The end of the month, after everything was accounted for (Ive seen as low as 68k and as high as 147k gross), Insurance(6k - Upstairs Dance Floor after 10 jacks this up really high), Rent(3.5k), Utilities(2k), Pay Roll (10-11k'ish), and food costs(30-35k'ish), the guy still made a great deal of money off this one Gourmet Restaurant (He owns four different restaurants in that downtown area). Enough to where the restaurant could pay the 5 waiter/esses, three bar tenders, during the busy days, for a full shift, great fucking wages. Enough to where the opportunity to work there would encourage the wait staff to want to do their best and only hire the best. But thats just a restaurant, that at its worst, charges 45$ for what is essentially a Softshell Crab Eggs Benedict for Brunch. I made good money as a Bar Tender, but there would be days where I would see the wait staff get really bitter towards the Bar Tenders. They didnt even have to tip us out, to put it into perspective. Shits not right.

Also, D, you're right in that the margins for most Alcohol thats kept in the Well has a very low margin. Thats why a good wait staff is going to up-sell to the more expensive liquors and the best of the Wait Staff is going to forego the mixed drinks and cheap wine altogether and sell, at minimum a $90 bottle of Wine to their table. Which is very doable at that location.

Are all restaurants like that? No, and I know that. But I also dont expect a shitty Steak House to be paying their Wait Staff as much as that place "Could". I think its required to tip your waiter/ess or Bar Tender. But that restaurant also made me realize you can do a lot more with less people and you could pay them a reasonable wage.

Eomer_sl said:

Because in no other industry am I expected to tip based on "performance". Retail sails is a perfect example. If you're in a high end clothing store buying a suit or some shit, or even a shoe store buying some runners, the salesperson who is helping you can have a massive impact on your experience for good or bad. They don't have a fucking cup at the till asking you to tip. Depending on the store they might be on commission, but that's between the business and it's employees. Again, no other industry expects it's own customers to subsidize the wages of it's employees as a matter of course.



There'd be some upheaval initially, sure. Some restaurants might have a hard time coping and go out of business. Prices would rise if you ignore the cost of tipping in that comparison. But overall in the wider economy, it would be a blip. People would keep spending the same amount of money on dining as they do, and because they were already tipping, nothing much will change.

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In retail/sales some places offer commission or sales bonuses. There are plenty of places in malls that ask you if someone specific helped you out. They often get credit/bonuses based on sales and customer service. So tipping them would be stupid because they get paid based on if you buy a product for them. Honestly, I would love to work as a waiter and base my income on commission. I would end up making more money. But then again, your food costs would go up and you'd have to deal with waiters really trying to sell you shit everytime you come into the restaurant. Most of the time they try half-heartedly.

As to your second point, do you not read what I've written twice? In order to shift to a tipless restaurant economy, any combination of three things would happen: 1) You get less food. 2) Service quality goes down. 3) Food prices increase beyond the 15-20% increase in food costs (or increase in food costs slightly and the restaurant putting a 15% service charge automatically on your bill).

Eomer_sl said:

You ought to tell this guy that he's running his business in to the ground then:The end of restaurant tipping? - MarketWatch

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n recent years, such renowned restaurants as Thomas Keller's Per Se in New York and French Laundry in Yountville, Calif., Alice Waters' Chez Panisse in Berkeley, Calif., and Grant Achatz's Alinea in Chicago have put no-tip policies in place. So did the recently closed Linkery restaurant in San Diego.


Eomer... Those are some of the most expensive restaurants on the planet... Their customers are not what I would call price sensitive

Fine you fucking fucks. I'll just stay home and grill something. Every goddamn time we try and eat out this bullshit has to start up.

Eomer_sl said:

You ought to tell this guy that he's running his business in to the ground then:The end of restaurant tipping? - MarketWatch

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Oh good, you found an article on Marketwatch. That pretty much validates everything in the world. So much research was done in writing that. It's not like some of the most expensive restaurants in some of the most wealthy cities in the US are not overpriced at all. I would imagine a Captain Morgan and Coke also costs $15 as well.

What, you bitches think I can't? I've got enough charcoal to grill a fuckingsteer.

Arbitrary_sl said:

Fine you fucking fucks. I'll just stay home and grill something. Every goddamn time we try and eat out this bullshit has to start up.

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This maybe isn't a bad response. Tipping is an accepted norm in North America. If you're not going to do it, don't go out.

Just an idea.

Daidraco_sl said:

Are all restaurants like that? No, and I know that. But I also dont expect a shitty Steak House to be paying their Wait Staff as much as that place "Could". I think its required to tip your waiter/ess or Bar Tender. But that restaurant also made me realize you can do a lot more with less people and you could pay them a reasonable wage.

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That's the point. If you can run a restaurant and charge a much higher price point on your food, you're more likely going to be able to pay your waiters a wage instead of tips, but you lose a lot of money. Case in point, if your typical Friday's or whatever commercial restaurant would have to increase food costs to nearly fine dining levels in order to cover increase costs.