Shroud Of The Avatar - Shit Went Persistent

Jait_sl said:

A guy that dresses up as a Lord British, crown, scepter, and all...out of touch?

Probably. But then again, this guy and Chris Roberts practically invented the fucking industry when most of you were in diapers or not yet born. It's like a Beatle saying music today sucks. They're wrong. But they have forgotten more about their industry than you'll ever possibly know.

And he's right about Roberts.

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not exactly. Paul McCartney has had a long career. If HE said everyone else sucks, not much we could say against him.

if Ringo said it....

Dude still calls himself Lord British. He's a toolbag, and anyone that gave him more money deserves the shitpile game this will be.

Sean_sl said:

The dude worked on a couple of the early Ultima games and that's about it. He's a fucking nobody compared to someone like Miyamoto or Inafune who actually built a substantial portion of the gaming industry and have a plethora of classic series as their legacies.

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Are you talking about Garriott or Roberts? Either way, to call one of them a "nobody" is hardly fair. Roberts, Garriott, Sid Meier, Will Wright and a few others are to gaming in the Western world what Miyamoto is to gaming in Japan. Computer gaming possibly never takes off if it weren't for those guys, which means that video gaming in general would have remained a pirmarily Japanese industry. Hell, without Garriott and the success of Ultima Online, there's a good chance none of us are even on this messageboard and playing massive online games. He may not have been the first to make an MMO, but he was the first to make one that was hugely successful. Theres a decent chance we never see the likes of EQ or WoW without UO laying the groundwork.

Not to mention you probably never see the likes of Blizzard, Bioware, and other great American/Western developers without the influence of the guys I listed above.

Japanese developers didn't solely make the video game industry what it is today, it was the work of great people on both sides.

Yes, but past successes have no correlation with quality of your future games - Bill Roper, John Romero...

The only exception is when you literally release the same game for every console - Mario and Zelda.

joeboo_sl said:

You do realize that Chris Roberts is probably every bit as rich as Richard Garriott right? Hell, Roberts directed his own movie(Wing Commander) and then opened his own Hollywood production company, Ascendant Pictures, which has put out several movies.

I love Wing Commander and Privateer as much as the next person, but Roberts is in roughly the same situation as Garriott, he hasn't put out a decent game in over a decade, and hasn't put out a great game in closer to 2.

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Roberts is worth WAY more than Garriott. And he only just now got back into gaming. He didn't leave by choice. When EA offers you 20million and then Microsoft offers you 25m to NOT make games, you take that cash and start a movie production company

Anyways, he's back now. And his next IP will blow everyone away. His engine for WC1 was analogous to building a gasoline engine in 1450AD. No one came close, and then this teenager does it like it's taking out the trash. We'd still be playing 2D iso scrollers if it wasn't for Roberts.


edit:

You guys may LOVE your current games, and that's great. I do too. But if you weren't a part of watching these games evolve from '79-'92 you just can't fathom how companies like Origin and Id changed EVERYTHING. They took an industry that said 3D engines with Earth Physics were impossible, and made it happen. That type of innovation and evolution doesn't occur today, because we're far more limited by technology? So were they. If we saw that innovation through the 00's, we'd all be playing virtual reality games that could feed us and give us handjobs from Mila Kunis.

Name one company today that isn't about the bottom line AND makes best sellers? That's the real problem. Chris Roberts was out programming what would eventually become a billion dollar IP using a fucking Commodore at 13. Where is that today?

...Valve

Valve is not about all about the money? Might want to rethink that. The core of that argument is that sure in '85 people wanted to make money with their games too, but they also wanted to make a good game and apparently had some say in it. Today, there's always a bigger fish in the megacorp hierarchy that strangles any apparently wasteful innovation out of the team. Movies are the same actually.

Luckily Kickstarter and indi gaming are a growing part of the industry, that's the best hope for gaming in the long run imo.

Mr Creed_sl said:

Valve is not about all about the money? Might want to rethink that. The core of that argument is that sure in '85 people wanted to make money with their games too, but they also wanted to make a good game and apparently had some say in it. Today, there's always a bigger fish in the megacorp hierarchy that strangles any apparently wasteful innovation out of the team. Movies are the same actually.

Luckily Kickstarter and indi gaming are a growing part of the industry, that's the best hope for gaming in the long run imo.

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Out of curiosity, what has Valve done to make you feel screwed over? I'm probably overlooking some stuff, but I don't recall them screwing people with day 1 content DLC and the like. Seems like they allow their game teams a fair amount of freedom with schedule and creative license as well. And Steam legitimized the digital download model, making games easily accessible and very reasonably priced when on sale.

It's a far cry from the 1 man project days of the 1980s, but I don't begrudge them for making money and growing. I will begrudge them when they start the same bullshit antics that EA and ActiBlizz pull.

Gamebreaker has the same story I posted about Garriot but the are always trolling in titles to get more peps to read the stories lol.

The Title is


http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/shr...esigners-suck/

To kill two birds with one stone, I figured I'd start an original UO thread and link the PC Gamer article featuring Garriott and his very Utnayan'ish views, which is pretty strong given what a mediocre game Tabula Rasa turned out to be.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/ri...esigners-suck/


After showing me Shroud of the Avatar, which he hopes meshes the best of classic RPGs with modern ideas, he moved on to talking about the classic principles of game design?the results of which he?d just been showing me?and what it means to be a great designer. He thinks the latter is rare in the industry.

?I?ve met virtually no one?who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am.?

?You know, I go back to the day when I was the programmer, I was the artist, I was the text writer, etcetera,? said Garriott. ?Every artist we?ve ever hired ever is infinitely better at art than I ever was. I was never a good artist, or audio engineer, or composer. I was a pretty good programmer, but now all of our programmers are better than I am?but if I?d stayed in programming I could probably keep up.

?But other than a few exceptions, like Chris Roberts, I?ve met virtually no one in our industry who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am. I?m not saying that because I think I?m so brilliant. What I?m saying is,I think most game designers really just suck,and I think there?s a reason why.?
?It?s really hard to go to school to be a good designer?

Chris Roberts, who worked with Garriott back when Origin Systems was producing both Ultima and Wing Commander, isn?t Garriott?s only exception?he also identified Will Wright and Peter Molyneux as examples of quality game designers. The majority, however, become designers because they lack other skills, according to Garriott?s analysis.

Garriott?s love of detail in a world, its characters, and their backstories has been evident in the Ultima universe since the ?80s. His method hasn?t gone away?he?s been working on Shroud of the Avatar?s story and design on paper, just like he always has?and he thinks this skill, or something comparable, is lacked today, replaced by lazy rehashes of old ideas.

?I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need.?

?And every designer that I work with?all throughout life?I think, frankly, is lazy,?said Garriot, adding ?to give you another zinger? in reference to my ribbing him earlier over his ?game designers suck? line.

?But if you follow, they generally say, ?You know, I really like Medal of Honor, but I would have bigger weapons, or I would have more healing packs, or,? you know. They go to make one or two changes to a game they otherwise love versus really sit down and rethink, ?How can I really move the needle here??

?You know, even if it?s just a map. I really push my team on how to make a scenario map. How do you really think about the whole thing holistically, to go, ?yeah, it?s fine to wander through and kill a few things and get a treasure at the end, but why? What?s your motivation for being into it? What are the side stories? If you have these characters in there, what were their lives before they showed up on this map? If you didn?t think of one, go back. Do it again. I want you to know it.??

"I think there?s really very few great game designers,? he continued. ?I think Chris Roberts is one of them, Will Wright?s another, Peter Molyneux is another. They clearly exist, but on the whole, I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need, as an industry. It?s a very hard skill to learn.?

Gecko_sl said:

To kill two birds with one stone, I figured I'd start an original UO thread and link the PC Gamer article featuring Garriott and his very Utnayan'ish views, which is pretty strong given what a mediocre game Tabula Rasa turned out to be.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/ri...esigners-suck/


After showing me Shroud of the Avatar, which he hopes meshes the best of classic RPGs with modern ideas, he moved on to talking about the classic principles of game design-the results of which he'd just been showing me-and what it means to be a great designer. He thinks the latter is rare in the industry.

"I've met virtually no one.who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am."

"You know, I go back to the day when I was the programmer, I was the artist, I was the text writer, etcetera," said Garriott. "Every artist we've ever hired ever is infinitely better at art than I ever was. I was never a good artist, or audio engineer, or composer. I was a pretty good programmer, but now all of our programmers are better than I am-but if I'd stayed in programming I could probably keep up.

"But other than a few exceptions, like Chris Roberts, I've met virtually no one in our industry who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am. I'm not saying that because I think I'm so brilliant. What I'm saying is,I think most game designers really just suck,and I think there's a reason why."
"It's really hard to go to school to be a good designer"

Chris Roberts, who worked with Garriott back when Origin Systems was producing both Ultima and Wing Commander, isn't Garriott's only exception-he also identified Will Wright and Peter Molyneux as examples of quality game designers. The majority, however, become designers because they lack other skills, according to Garriott's analysis.

Garriott's love of detail in a world, its characters, and their backstories has been evident in the Ultima universe since the '80s. His method hasn't gone away-he's been working on Shroud of the Avatar's story and design on paper, just like he always has-and he thinks this skill, or something comparable, is lacked today, replaced by lazy rehashes of old ideas.

"I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need."

"And every designer that I work with-all throughout life-I think, frankly, is lazy,"said Garriot, adding "to give you another zinger" in reference to my ribbing him earlier over his "game designers suck" line.

"But if you follow, they generally say, 'You know, I really like Medal of Honor, but I would have bigger weapons, or I would have more healing packs, or,' you know. They go to make one or two changes to a game they otherwise love versus really sit down and rethink, 'How can I really move the needle here?'

"You know, even if it's just a map. I really push my team on how to make a scenario map. How do you really think about the whole thing holistically, to go, 'yeah, it's fine to wander through and kill a few things and get a treasure at the end, but why? What's your motivation for being into it? What are the side stories? If you have these characters in there, what were their lives before they showed up on this map? If you didn't think of one, go back. Do it again. I want you to know it.'"

"I think there's really very few great game designers," he continued. "I think Chris Roberts is one of them, Will Wright's another, Peter Molyneux is another. They clearly exist, but on the whole, I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need, as an industry. It's a very hard skill to learn."

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Gecko I posted this long while ago in Teso thread and EqN thread also updated shroud thread, did it in 2 mmo threads cause those 2 get read the most and they are still coming out end of year and 2 years give or take.

http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.p...-Online/page32

http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.p...Q-Next/page157

http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.p...e-Avatar/page4

Mr Creed_sl said:

Valve is not about all about the money? Might want to rethink that. The core of that argument is that sure in '85 people wanted to make money with their games too, but they also wanted to make a good game and apparently had some say in it. Today, there's always a bigger fish in the megacorp hierarchy that strangles any apparently wasteful innovation out of the team. Movies are the same actually.

Luckily Kickstarter and indi gaming are a growing part of the industry, that's the best hope for gaming in the long run imo.

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Valve is privately owned, so they can do whatever the fuck they want. IIRC Gabe said that they profits increase by 50% every year, or something like that, which is pretty crazy. They also figured out that the best way to make money is to be the middleman between 2 small guys.

I swear reading your posts gives me headaches, aleksei.

I was more into Bard's Tale and SSI's Gold Box Series of games than Ultima. Garriott'sscreedon "... what makes a great role playing game ..." is short on substance and long on "I am Lord British and I am fucking awesome."

Jait_sl said:

You guys may LOVE your current games, and that's great. I do too. But if you weren't a part of watching these games evolve from '79-'92 you just can't fathom how companies like Origin and Id changed EVERYTHING. They took an industry that said 3D engines with Earth Physics were impossible, and made it happen. That type of innovation and evolution doesn't occur today, because we're far more limited by technology? So were they. If we saw that innovation through the 00's, we'd all be playing virtual reality games that could feed us and give us handjobs from Mila Kunis.

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How did those guys make that happen? You act like they were the ones creating and advancing the technology behind the actual work that they did (creating video games). Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think that's the case. If anything you should be thanking the hardware makers of the time, that's why those advancements were possible. And those advancements didn't only help the video game industry, they helped every industry and made our lives better in ways far greater than simple video games with fancy graphics.

What did Richard Garriott do exactly? He allowed people to play something similar to Dungeons and Dragons on their computers, that's about it. And he wasn't even the only person doing that, ever hear of a little franchise called Wizardry? I'm sure there were others too.

The point is that the guy is big headed. He hasn't made anything good since Ultima Online and based on what the people in this thread are saying he probably didn't even do any work on that game. There's no way that he deserves all of those people giving him what is going to equal to millions of dollars. I find it abusive toward and disrespectful of video game players, players like myself who have purchased, played and enjoyed several Ultima games.

Even if he didn't do the work, it isn't illogical to assume that something that he's completely at the helm of (which many of the later projects he wasn't) he could piece together similar teams to those that he helped put together in the past.

It's the same reason why a CEO from corporation X is hired by corporation Y even when they can be completely different products, because the ability to put together an all star team below you to get things done is a skillset even when you are responsible for little directly.

(Not that I'm supporting this, but the reasoning behind supporting it is trivial to comprehend)

cinge_sl said:

I swear reading your posts gives me headaches, aleksei.

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It's what they make you read in purgatory.

I lack the will to bash RG further even though ""And every designer that I work with-all throughout life-I think, frankly, is lazy," said Garriot" that incenses me even more than the suck remark. To say this man lives in a bubble is an understatement.

edit. Oh sweet someone else sums it up for me

http://www.f13.net/index.php?itemid=846

He's right up there with Cliffy B and Molywhatever when it comes to overrated game designers. That said, many of his points are valid when it comes to the state of game design these days.

Haast_sl said:

Out of curiosity, what has Valve done to make you feel screwed over? I'm probably overlooking some stuff, but I don't recall them screwing people with day 1 content DLC and the like. Seems like they allow their game teams a fair amount of freedom with schedule and creative license as well. And Steam legitimized the digital download model, making games easily accessible and very reasonably priced when on sale.

It's a far cry from the 1 man project days of the 1980s, but I don't begrudge them for making money and growing. I will begrudge them when they start the same bullshit antics that EA and ActiBlizz pull.

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Oh I dont feel screwed over by Valve, dont get me wrong.

Its just that imo they are mostly about steam and cornering the digital distribution market and less so about regular game releases (when was the last half life episode?). Imo steam the way it is today is about money (you might argue otherwise but thats my take). Regardless, I like Steam since I'm getting good deals and have my gaming library managed/available in one spot, and I can throw a couple of bucks at something that I wouldnt take notice of otherwise that turns out great (last one was FTL). Thats not the "making games" side of Valve though and that they are also a developer seems so secondary to me these days.

On the topic of naming a company that puts game quality before the bottom line, I cant think of any. Imo Bioware and Blizzard used to be like that a decade ago, but that ship has sailed. I obviously dont know all game companies so maybe someone else has an idea.