Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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a_skeleton_03

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I played it during live and loved it. No it didn't have anything "massive" about its battles.

I might try the emulator out this week.
 
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Draegan_sl

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E&B was the first beta I ever got in to. They had to mail me CDs to install the game. It was cool. I wonder if they are still tucked away in my parents house.
 
Furry

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Denaut_sl said:
Who was talking about Eve, because I wasn't
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Denaut_sl said:
I've talked about this before, but it seems relevant here as well.

Technically speaking, for an online game there are 3 main bottlenecks:
  1. Server Performance
  2. Network Traffic
  3. Client Performance

Massive space battles fall partially into #1 but mostly into number #2. Network traffic is essentially the main "unsolvable" (technically speaking) problem with large space battles.
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Oh, I didn't know the major problem holding star citizen back from having successful massive space battles was the net code. I thought it was the whole having a game coded part that was the stopping block at the moment. Got me. Obviously when you're talking about real examples of current games with the way its worded, you clearly meant star citizen. Or one of the other myriad of online space mmos that are successful enough to have massive space battles. Clearly that can't be eve online.

Please accept this heartfelt apology for my misunderstanding.
 
Sylas

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seriously, no clue on the furry hate from whatever thread but in the context of this thread you guys are kinda retarded.

Tuco said he didn't buy rsi's claim that the client was the limiter of players in an instance for space battles.
Denaut said it was actually the network and tried some pseudo appeal to authority claiming familiarity withall of those space mmos with massive space battles
All Furry said was "which fucking mmo are you talking about with massive space battles cus the only one that I know of is Eve Online and it's bottleneck is server cpu"

And he's still right.

I mean unless you guys are talking about that other space MMO with thousands of players, tens of thousands of drones (pets with their own AI), thousands of other objects in space like missiles and wrecks and etc all fighting in a single non-instanced zone, on the same field even. Please regale us with your wisdom of that other MMO and how they make it work and how network traffic or client performance happens to be the bottleneck in that game.
 
Furry

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I think its rather funny furries annoy itzena so much. I use a squeeker myself in suit, so its fair to imagine that as my voice.
 
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Itzena_sl

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Furry_sl said:
I think its rather funny furries annoy itzena so much. I use a squeeker myself in suit, so its fair to imagine that as my voice.
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haP2WQg.jpg
 
hodj

hodj

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Furries are the forefront, the tip of the spear of internet stupidity which has given birth to diaper fetishism and bronies. There are no redeemable qualities in furry fandom.
 
Mr Creed

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Tuco_sl said:
I just figured he meant in regards to a notional massive space battle occuring in SC.
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I assumed EVE because there is no other massive space battle multiplayer game. SC might become one in 3+ years but who knows, even the current plans outlined by Variise dont put it into the "massive" category for me.
 
Denaut

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Furry_sl said:
Oh, I didn't know the major problem holding star citizen back from having successful massive space battles was the net code.
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Here's the deal, you don't know as much as you think you do. You are looking at both games through the eyes of a player, seeing pretty pictures, and thinking "These are similar games!" You think Star Citizen is like Eve because OMG SPACESHIPS! It isn't. Star Citizen is nothing like Eve, you might as well be comparing it to Civilization. I was very clearly talking about Star Citizen when I commented in a thread about Star Citizen quoting someone talking about Star Citizen while describing action games and comparing Star Citizen to Planetside 2, which is also an action game.

Action games are fundamentally different because of their extremely high rate of player actions. When there is an extremely high rate of actions, you have an extremely high amount of network traffic because the measure of network traffic is throughput and that is a rate. It usmuchmore difficult to deal with this limitation because of the nature of a geometric increases (n^2) in message traffic for every player you add and you can't just throw hardware at it.

If your "netcode" (I doubt you even really understand what this means)justaccommodates 4 players without sacrificing game-play quality then todoublethe number of players to 8 you would need code that isfour timesmore efficient. And it goes on like this. 16 players is 4x 8 players, and by the time you get to something like 64 players (Battlefield) you have to process messages 256x more efficiently than you did for only 4 players. Due to diminishing returns, each optimization costs more than the last, so jumping from 4-8 was much easier than jumping from 8-11 and so on. You quite quickly get to a point where you simply can't make any more meaningful optimizations without either sacrificing game-play or incurring massive costs.

So yes, if you fundamentally changed the game, then you could have "massive space battles" inagame titledStar Citizen... but then it wouldn't betheStar Citizennow would it?
 
Denaut

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Sylas_sl said:
Tuco said he didn't buy rsi's claim that the client was the limiter of players in an instance for space battles.
Denaut said it was actually the network and tried some pseudo appeal to authority claiming familiarity withall of those space mmos with massive space battles
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What post did you read? I never said what their current bottleneck is, I was talking about what their bottleneckshould be. If their bottleneck is actually the client then that is a pretty major black mark for them. Optimizing client rendering is significantly easier and less costly/time consuming than optimizing network traffic, so if they can't even get that right in 3 years...
 
Sylas

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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
The small size per zone is a bunch of bullshit. Their reasoning was that their shit rendered so hot people's PCs couldn't handle it, but I call shenanigans on it. It's probably server-side pussy-footing. Personally I think massive space battles are awesome, but I can respect Chris Roberts for not attempting it.
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Denaut_sl said:
I've talked about this before, but it seems relevant here as well.

Technically speaking, for an online game there are 3 main bottlenecks:
  1. Server Performance
  2. Network Traffic
  3. Client Performance

Massive space battles fall partially into #1 but mostly into number #2. Network traffic is essentially the main "unsolvable" (technically speaking) problem with large space battles. Network traffic increases at about the square of the number of interacting (or players capable of interacting at any given moment) since every player you add has to send and receive messages from every other player.

This is made much worse for action games because the rate of input, and therefore the rate of messages is also significantly higher. The server has to then process these messaged and send them back. All of this takes time and even with perfect fiber and powerful servers you hit massive bottlenecks extremely quickly.

There are sort of hacky ways around this design wise that mostly work, such as what Planetside 2 does. You can carve up a large battle up into smaller local "battles" by dividing up the population using shortest split lines and then phasing those groups into logical sub-group that cannot interact with each other.

As an area gets more densely populated your player you'll see fewer and fewer people further away, and depending on where you fall in the shortest splint line zone you may be phased away from someone right next to you. This tends to work out alright because you are more concerned about people near you than those further away, and as you deal with those nearby people the little box expands outwards.

It is a little more complex than that, but that is the gist of it. If they are hitting a client bottleneck before even hitting a network bottleneck it makes me wonder how they are building the game.
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seriously you forgot what you posted <24 hours ago not even 2 pages back in this thread?
 
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Draegan_sl

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Why don't you guys spend another day and two pages determining which game the other person was talking about? Or maybe sylas you can just say oops, I thought I you were talking about eve and move on.
 
Sylas

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lol why the fuck would I do that, i'm not in the wrong.

Denault is talking about action mmo limitations (Which SC isn't) but then keeps referencing massive space battles. All Furry said was "there's only 1 fucking game with massive space battles to reference and network traffic sure as shit ain't it's bottleneck"
then half a dozen posters shove their ignorant uninformed noses up Denault's ass/hate on Furry for some shit he must of done is some other threads.

Denault is clearly talking about Action MMO limitations, as a reason why SC can't have massive space battles. SC isn't an action MMO. you aren't going to be bunny hopping on dudes and 360 noscoping with your fucking ship. According to the people who've got several paychecks worth of hopium invested in this thing there's going to be 90 fucking dudes in a single ship playing mini-games radar intercept officer and 6 people holding down W to move forward and another 2 dozen just sitting in a drop hangar holding their dicks waiting to deploy in case your ship gets boarded. Clearly the zones aren't going to be limited to 64 players, or all those people will be in an instance and only 1 pilot will count towards the zone's count and none of the minigames matter.

Or more likely this whole thing is just a ponzi scheme so roberts can get his wife into hollywood.

Sorry not sorry that you fail at reading comprehension and can't follow a discussion.
 
Quaid

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Sylas the 2015 Asshat awards are well underway.

You are making a good showing, but I suggest focusing your efforts around next August.
 
Tuco

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Sylas_sl said:
lol why the fuck would I do that, i'm not in the wrong.

Denault is talking about action mmo limitations (Which SC isn't) but then keeps referencing massive space battles. All Furry said was "there's only 1 fucking game with massive space battles to reference and network traffic sure as shit ain't it's bottleneck"
then half a dozen posters shove their ignorant uninformed noses up Denault's ass/hate on Furry for some shit he must of done is some other threads.

Denault is clearly talking about Action MMO limitations, as a reason why SC can't have massive space battles. SC isn't an action MMO. you aren't going to be bunny hopping on dudes and 360 noscoping with your fucking ship. According to the people who've got several paychecks worth of hopium invested in this thing there's going to be 90 fucking dudes in a single ship playing mini-games radar intercept officer and 6 people holding down W to move forward and another 2 dozen just sitting in a drop hangar holding their dicks waiting to deploy in case your ship gets boarded. Clearly the zones aren't going to be limited to 64 players, or all those people will be in an instance and only 1 pilot will count towards the zone's count and none of the minigames matter.

Or more likely this whole thing is just a ponzi scheme so roberts can get his wife into hollywood.

Sorry not sorry that you fail at reading comprehension and can't follow a discussion.
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In terms of network CPU usage and traffic, isn't SC closer to planetside than Eve?
 
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