Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)
- Thread starter Aaron
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I think the biggest thing about this argument about fencing and shit is that you have to remember that sith/Jedi can basically see into the fucking future and that's why I think it evolves into that block,spin block that you saw in the movies. You basically have to overwhelm your opponents senses to put them into a position to hit them.
Lithose
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Yeah, you know, except the fight choreographer said he changed from a Kendo style (Samurai) to anamalgamation, including a Rapierstyle for the faster more dramatic flourishes and movements. But you know better bro.
"but once I took the job, I looked at them and thought, "Things have moved on. I can't make the fights the same as they were back then. I have to up the ante'."
The Jedi style of fighting is an amalgamation of all the great swordfighting styles. Melding them together is the difficult part--to move from a Kendo style to, say, Rapier requires a complete change in body and feet movement, and this must look effortless. The style moves seamlessly between the different disciplines, but remains technically correct throughout.
I'll try to find the longer interview where he talks about Lee specifically. But regardless, the original styles Bob Anderson specifically gave them a broadsword feel. This set of films Lucas asked for quicker movements and more flare; rapier style fighting or fencing was the go to; with Dooku being the epitome of it (Because he was an actual fencer). You're trying to argue that sabers needed to have two hands due to some EU reasoning--but in the movies we saw people dual wielding, flipping around with them and twirling them like batons--this is not stuff you do with a two handed heavy weapon (Even as light as say, a Katana).
You're seeing what you want, not what is there. Like I said, how Dooku'sformwas (Not so much the fight, that was silly)? Probably how things would look if you could twirl sabers with one hand (Signifying they are light)...Combined with fights being brief, quick exchanges with long pauses (Like the Obi/Darth one)--which again was my original post.
Gamma Rays
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You have to realize Lithose never lets go of an argument and he'll sometimes shitpost until he sobers up. He'll never concede that he's wrong.
Chysamere
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Lithose is both wrong and right. Count Dooku was a practitioner ofForm 2 - Makashiwhich is why his lightsaber hilt is curved. It's a dueling style. They probably chose it for him because Christopher Lee did fencing, but there's an explanation for the curved hilt in the actual lore.
There are, however, several styles of lightsaber combat which focus on different areas. Dueling is not their primary concern, due to you know, everyone in the fucking galaxy having a blaster.
Sure this is mostly EU stuff, but it was pretty well explained in KOTOR as well, which is still canon. Maybe? Sort of?
There are, however, several styles of lightsaber combat which focus on different areas. Dueling is not their primary concern, due to you know, everyone in the fucking galaxy having a blaster.
Sure this is mostly EU stuff, but it was pretty well explained in KOTOR as well, which is still canon. Maybe? Sort of?
Aaron
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Jumping in mid argument here, but these are my thoughts (coming from someone in his mid 30s who grew up with SW):
1. Darth Vader's name and rank: For me it's always been Darth being a title and Vader an adopted name. Think of it a bit like Pope Benedikt, where Pope is his title and Benedikt is a name he chose after receiving the title. It strips you of your past. Vader is no longer either Anakin or Skywalker, let alone a Jedi, so none of those titles or names would make any sense to keep. Also, he is outside of regular imperial rank and file. He's the Emperor's right hand man or special agent. Sometimes he is put under a commander for whatever reason (Grand Moff Tarkin), and sometimes he gets a command of his own (as on the Executor). But in the end, he only answers to the Emperor, and while not stated, he only worked for Tarkin because the Emperor commanded Vader to work under him.
2. The whole power of the force and "size matters not" has been taken to the extremes in the EU, ranging from Jedi pulling out individual poison molecules from a dying person's body, to a group pushing a starship fleet from out of orbit. Both cases are "logical" but idiotic, in my opinion. When you look at the films you notice the Jedi and Sith only seem to use the Force on objects they can see and are relatively close (up to 30-60 meters away), with the exception of what might be called far sight (when Luke senses Han's torture). In my mind the Force has a diminishing effect on range, so you can Force push someone who is 20 meters away, but only nudge them at 40 meters, and maybe only wave their hair at 60 if you get my drift. If you don't have such limitations then you open up a whole can of ugly worms.
3. The number of Jedi I've always thought to be maybe a handful per populated planet, and seeing as the SW galaxy is HUUUUGE, that would mean in total a fair few, enough for Vader to have spent a decade or two hunting the last ones down, but still not a galactic police force as sometimes seems. Most people could go their entire lives without seeing a Jedi, and for me, it's always seemed that Jedi should try to remain relatively inconspicuous (just as old Obi Wan seemed like an old man to most). Sure, there would be a good bunch at the Jedi Academy and on Coruscent and other places of Republic power, but there they would number in the hundreds at most on a planets of billions or tens of billions.
This is just the way I see it and justify the SW universe in my mind. Take what you like and leave what you don't!
1. Darth Vader's name and rank: For me it's always been Darth being a title and Vader an adopted name. Think of it a bit like Pope Benedikt, where Pope is his title and Benedikt is a name he chose after receiving the title. It strips you of your past. Vader is no longer either Anakin or Skywalker, let alone a Jedi, so none of those titles or names would make any sense to keep. Also, he is outside of regular imperial rank and file. He's the Emperor's right hand man or special agent. Sometimes he is put under a commander for whatever reason (Grand Moff Tarkin), and sometimes he gets a command of his own (as on the Executor). But in the end, he only answers to the Emperor, and while not stated, he only worked for Tarkin because the Emperor commanded Vader to work under him.
2. The whole power of the force and "size matters not" has been taken to the extremes in the EU, ranging from Jedi pulling out individual poison molecules from a dying person's body, to a group pushing a starship fleet from out of orbit. Both cases are "logical" but idiotic, in my opinion. When you look at the films you notice the Jedi and Sith only seem to use the Force on objects they can see and are relatively close (up to 30-60 meters away), with the exception of what might be called far sight (when Luke senses Han's torture). In my mind the Force has a diminishing effect on range, so you can Force push someone who is 20 meters away, but only nudge them at 40 meters, and maybe only wave their hair at 60 if you get my drift. If you don't have such limitations then you open up a whole can of ugly worms.
3. The number of Jedi I've always thought to be maybe a handful per populated planet, and seeing as the SW galaxy is HUUUUGE, that would mean in total a fair few, enough for Vader to have spent a decade or two hunting the last ones down, but still not a galactic police force as sometimes seems. Most people could go their entire lives without seeing a Jedi, and for me, it's always seemed that Jedi should try to remain relatively inconspicuous (just as old Obi Wan seemed like an old man to most). Sure, there would be a good bunch at the Jedi Academy and on Coruscent and other places of Republic power, but there they would number in the hundreds at most on a planets of billions or tens of billions.
This is just the way I see it and justify the SW universe in my mind. Take what you like and leave what you don't!
Caliane
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Vader chokes a bitch pretty long distance in Empire. Not exactly clear how far.Jumping in mid argument here, but these are my thoughts (coming from someone in his mid 30s who grew up with SW):
1. Darth Vader's name and rank: For me it's always been Darth being a title and Vader an adopted name. Think of it a bit like Pope Benedikt, where Pope is his title and Benedikt is a name he chose after receiving the title. It strips you of your past. Vader is no longer either Anakin or Skywalker, let alone a Jedi, so none of those titles or names would make any sense to keep. Also, he is outside of regular imperial rank and file. He's the Emperor's right hand man or special agent. Sometimes he is put under a commander for whatever reason (Grand Moff Tarkin), and sometimes he gets a command of his own (as on the Executor). But in the end, he only answers to the Emperor, and while not stated, he only worked for Tarkin because the Emperor commanded Vader to work under him.
2. The whole power of the force and "size matters not" has been taken to the extremes in the EU, ranging from Jedi pulling out individual poison molecules from a dying person's body, to a group pushing a starship fleet from out of orbit. Both cases are "logical" but idiotic, in my opinion. When you look at the films you notice the Jedi and Sith only seem to use the Force on objects they can see and are relatively close (up to 30-60 meters away), with the exception of what might be called far sight (when Luke senses Han's torture). In my mind the Force has a diminishing effect on range, so you can Force push someone who is 20 meters away, but only nudge them at 40 meters, and maybe only wave their hair at 60 if you get my drift. If you don't have such limitations then you open up a whole can of ugly worms.
3. The number of Jedi I've always thought to be maybe a handful per populated planet, and seeing as the SW galaxy is HUUUUGE, that would mean in total a fair few, enough for Vader to have spent a decade or two hunting the last ones down, but still not a galactic police force as sometimes seems. Most people could go their entire lives without seeing a Jedi, and for me, it's always seemed that Jedi should try to remain relatively inconspicuous (just as old Obi Wan seemed like an old man to most). Sure, there would be a good bunch at the Jedi Academy and on Coruscent and other places of Republic power, but there they would number in the hundreds at most on a planets of billions or tens of billions.
This is just the way I see it and justify the SW universe in my mind. Take what you like and leave what you don't!
The Executor is listed as 19,000 meters. Admiral was on the bridge, Vader in his med pod.
Granted, that can also be explained by Vader being exceptional.
Drakain
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Back on the fencing and blocking. If I'm in a lightsabers duel, you bet your ass I'm going to block. I agree that it only take a touch, but if my opponent touches me I'm toast. In fencing, I'm not going to lose an arm or leg if I get poked. You can't truly compare a non-lethal 'sport' to a mortal combat. Put in real swords and no padding and fencing would change dramatically.
Lithose
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I've conceded I've been wrong several times on this board. I'm wrong when I'm wrong, though. In this case, you can literally watch the making of videos and see this stuff is in them (George asking for flashier saber styles because he wants to show Jedi in their "prime"--this statement is specifically in the making of Phantom Menace). Then you can see tons of interviews from Nick Gillard (The person who designed the fights) where he flat out says he worked in a rapier style to make it flashier (I linked one). I'm not sure what evidence you guys want. But if shit posting is pointing to sources, and links, while someone else says "nuh uh"--thenlol.
Also, it's four months until release--I'm discussingthematicfailures in Star Wars movies in between any other content that is coming out. I'm really curious as to why this is an issue? If the posts were drowning out relevant release information, meh; maybe I could see some ire, but this seems like a silly branding of shit posting. (You know, discussing thematic elements in amovie series...in a movie thread about that film. You're like an old man angry young people are talking around his lawn, Draeg
./)Again though, I don't really care about the expanded lore explanation. The discussion was about why the prequel fightsfelt off, and that discussion was based in part on how the fights didn't seem realistic (Other people said that). I was only adding that I didn't think they felt off due to lack of realism, as even in the originals, the fightingwasn't very realistic(If you have a super light weapon)...I then referenced Dooku as illustrating how a super light weapon would be held ect (And in his fight he twirls his saber like its nothing.)
My post was pointing out that themes are important. Adding a bunch of flourishes and silly jumps, when your theme thus far has been to show sabers being used more like broad swords--makes the fighting look clunkier and less grounded in the universe itself. However, if you could flip a saber around, then how Lee looked (With the saber in one hand, with a ready guard?) would probably be typically how they'd be used if we're going by realism. But the whole point of the post was that realismshouldgive way to theme within the movie itself. And frankly the heavy Samurai theme was better.
Lithose
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Again, the reason people don't block is because it isn't very effective. When you have a light weapon, its very easy to slide your wrist and cut beyond a steady block. Even in a "real fight" with a rapier, this is the case; if you try to block, I can just flip my wrist down and cut your arm or take a chunk out of your chest. It's both faster and safer to simply move your body, and you don't have to jeopardize your blade. But the point is, as long as your body is in the same place? He can move his sword quite easily to hit it, regardless of your blocking. (However, parryingissomething that happens, but parrying is much more active--it's you striking at his blade mid swing to "bounce" it back. But it doesn't look like the big power blocks and sword crosses in movies, again, those would only make you vulnerable.) In any cass, movie fights look like they do because they are more entertaining, it doesn't have much to do with realism. That being said, again the point was I felt like the original choreography felt better and was more entertaining; the moment you could flip these ultra deadly weapons around like a wiffle ball bat, they instantly felt like they lost something for me.
Gavinmad
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The best part of this stupid argument is the fact that nobody is paying attention to the important part of Lithose' posts, where he says that he thinks the fight choreography in the originals was better. And he isn't wrong. If the blades were weightless, lightsaber fighting should have evolved to be more like foil fencing. And it's clear from the effortless way Anakin flips two sabers around or the way Dooku handles his saber that the blades are weightless in the prequels. I don't remember most of the saber duels in Clone Wars, but I know when Pre Vizsla fought Obi-Wan, it was somewhere in between the prequels and the originals. Vizsla was moving the blade around pretty easily, but they were definitely fighting more in more of a broadsword style.
The most important part out of all of this is the fact that the prequels are bad and we should forget them.
The most important part out of all of this is the fact that the prequels are bad and we should forget them.