Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

radditsu

Silver Knight of the Realm
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I always assumed lightsabers had little weight but did have resistance due to whatever magic makes a blade of light solid in the first place. Like swinging a spinning gyroscope around, or whatever.

A star destroyer would totally wreck the enterprise.
Most things do. However you could make a case for a Dominion Battleship making a dent in a Star Destroyer, especially if they know about the not so secret weak point of the shield generators and the bridge being in a stupid place.
 

Lithose

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Lithose, what if blade contact generates enormous friction or magnetic attraction so blocks work very well with lightsabers?

Also why are you comparing them to rapier when showing a video of saber fight, they are very different. Rapier more stab stab, saber more slash slash stab drag.
Saber in fencing doesn't mean a saber-saber; it means any part of the blade can make contact (So you can score a point with the edge AND point, where in foil only the point of the weapon can). The form (Saber style) still uses mostly stabs and thrusts. Mostly because when dealing, again, with light weapons--that kind of long reach and quick movement is just superior; even if you can slash, you won't because it is too clumsy and opens you up too much to an attack. If I make a cutting motion, I commit a lot more time to the swing than a simple thrust, or a wrist flip. I can also stay much lighter on my feet without said commitment. Why fencing evolved the way it did, even with the "saber" rules is due to this (And you can argue in a "real fight", scoring points wouldn't happen ect; but again, in a fight with a weapon that will vaporizes flesh on contact? I'd say the fights would be very much like scoring points, every hit would give you a huge advantage, even if it were only little taps here and there, as you take your opponent apart).

As for the blocking? Well again, the problem is for a light weapon? It's easy to move it before you make contact (Even if we can say once the swords are crossed they get 'stuck"--with a decent "light" weapon, you'd never hit a stationary object unless you wanted to, if you were at all decent.)...So if you go to put your weapon in my way, I can just move my wrist really easy and slip around it, without ever hitting it. Again though,parriesare different; they require hitting the other persons sword--your sword isalwaysin motion, because you don't want to give him the chance to correct the thrust. So, I mean if you're saying that the big blocks happen because someone parries and their swords get stuck together? Sure, that works as a reason on the screen.

But it still doesn't explain the "strength" based chopping/slashing motions and big grand standing saber holds. With such a light weapon, both those things are pretty silly; especially with a weapon that can cut with even less force than a real sword (Which requires about a pound of pressure). However; with a nice heavy weapon? Those big boisterous motions aren't so silly..in fact they end up looking really good, then (In my opinion). Because when fighting with big broad swords against armor, those big swings are what you might expect. Which is why all the references with the flipping and one handed saber use? Made the sabers look odd...they felt like they had weight on the old films, it made them feel better in their own universe. When I saw them being twirled around, half the fighting style started looking slow and clunky, just really obtuse to do those big chops when it's clear you can flip the saber around with your wrist...I mean why would you put your full frontal face so close to your target then? (Giving him a far bigger area to hit?)...It doesn't make sense. (But it DOES make sense if the saber has some heft and weight, then you need your fully body to control it.)
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
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Maybe they are using the force to hinder their opponent, who is at the same time countering with both the force and "crude matter"

It really only takes a little imagination. At least until Lucas fucks up and tries to explain something.
 

Lithose

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If you want to see a pretty close approximation to an actual rapier sword fight? Rob Roy's choreography (Rapier) is excellent, some parts are still very unrealistic (Neeson's broad sword use is meh), but it is a far closer depiction of how a light weapon would be used. (Also, you see why in this I thought the original Vader and Obiwan duel was the best...It showed what real fighting was like. A lot of duels spent time looking for openings or just taking a breath...Using a sword is fucking exhausting, you are tired after a minute, even if you're in great shape. That whole concept of standing around between small bouts of violence I think is better from a drama perspective, too.)


Now there are some silly flourishes, like the "behind the back cuts"--they were put in to explain the character being a "show off" for his patron, it is silly. But in general? This is why big grand chops wouldn't work. Tim Roth is using a rapier variant; and he does slash with it quite a bit, but you can see they are more of "drags after a thrust", or quick cuts after he pushes to an opening with thrusts. He almost always "gets in there" with a bunch of short thrusts. There is plenty of blade crossing still, but it's quick and mostly him striking the other blade (There are a few parries here that wouldn't really happen, they are there for show) but never just puts up a big block. (Watch the Anikan and Obi-wan fight, when Anikan is on the table and holds his sword up look a doofus and obiwan just chooses to hit it, lol.) This also does show how a real fight would also be different from "sport" fencing, as in a real duel, the "first hit" doesn't stop your opponent from a counter-attack (You can be wounded and still hit the other person). In addition it shows how lateral movement makes real fights different from "sport" fencing, too (Where duelists are contained on a line). Some other aspects are silly (The spins, lol), but it's a closer depiction.

In any case, even with a rapier it takes less than a pound of force to cut someone, small, fast motions to whittle your opponent down, and letting the exertion of a sword fight do the work, is how most duels actually went. It's why lighter, thinner and longer weapons were used as armor became less effective. If you had a weapon that was very light (Easy to twirl in your hand?), like Roth's weapon above? You'd absolutely go in one handed and side facing, until you could land a blow. It gives you every advantage, andnodisadvantages. This is why I felt like the fighting became clunky in the prequels--we see Jedi twilring their sabers like they are nothing, but then coming up two handed and making these big power strikes....why? There is no reason to do that when all you need is a touch to debilitate your opponent. Even with normal steel weapons that would be silly--when all you need is a few pounds of force to take a huge chunk of flesh off.

In my opinion, it just felt more contained when sabers seemed to be heavy...felt better, man. Maybe I'm odd, but I felt like the flourishes and treating sabers like they were rapiers in the prequels really made the fights look silly.
 

Thlayli

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Fucking hell, this debate is still going? There are treatments for autism-spectrum these days you know...
 

Lithose

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Maybe they are using the force to hinder their opponent, who is at the same time countering with both the force and "crude matter"

It really only takes a little imagination. At least until Lucas fucks up and tries to explain something.
Meh, I guess for me it is mostly about looks. There are a thousand ways to explain it, sure. You can say the jedi actually have force armor, and unless you do a power slash your lightsaber will be deflected just enough so you won't hit! Or any number of reasons for it. But I can only judge by what's in the movie...Now, when all the fights had one theme? I can just assume the sabers were pretty heavy, and that's why they were used as such. But once they showed sabers weren't? I had to start questioning it. (The whole show, not tell concept.). I just felt like the originals had a very contained theme, that explained itself well visually. The prequels broke that theme and didn't explain why; it made everything feel off, for me at least.

Fucking hell, this debate is still going? There are treatments for autism-spectrum these days you know...
Seriously, what news or announcement is this conversation covering up? Why the are people bent out of shape about people geeking out a little over fight choreography in a thread about a movie that is primarily about people fighting withlaser swords? I'm seriously baffled by this phenomenon. There is no excuse to not just skip past this stuff; there is no current content on this movie. You are literally bitching just to bitch; as if I'm reaching through the computer and making you read it and you resent it, lol. As you don't even have the excuse that you're trying to read something else here. As I said, when news gets posted, I'll stop--this is just a fun conversation, why the hell does that draw so much ire?
 

Mario Speedwagon

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Enough about this sword bullshit. I'm sick of hearing about swords. Lith, can I get an essay on the finer points of axe and mace combat? You don't hear enough about those. Swords are for pussies. Also if you could theorize a little about what laser axe/mace combat would look like I'd appreciate that too.
 

Lithose

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Enough about this sword bullshit. I'm sick of hearing about swords. Lith, can I get an essay on the finer points of axe and mace combat? You don't hear enough about those. Swords are for pussies. Also if you could theorize a little about what laser axe/mace combat would look like I'd appreciate that too.
I honestly don't know, Sorry Doc. My nerd-history larp group only fucks around with swords
frown.png
. If I were dropped in the medieval world, I'd have a big spiked mace+armor over a sword, though.
 

Jait

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It really only takes a little imagination. At least until Lucas fucks up and tries to explain something.
This isn't just a Lucas problem. Spoonfeeding audiences and leaving nothing to the imagination has become the trend. But I know what you're getting at. Lucas really needed to keep Star Wars a Fantasy in a Sci-Fi setting. The Force was and should be magic. The prequels really fucked that.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Then stay out of the thread until more news arrives and stop bitching at us for talking about lightsabers.

Fucking faggots.
 

Draegan_sl

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Every time this thread gets bumped I think there is some news but then it's just more lithose babbling about real life jedis from the middle ages or something.

Fuck. Start another if u want to talk sword fighting choreography.
 

Hoss

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OK new subject. Lets talk about boba fett's armor

BobaFettMain2.jpg


Versus his dad's armor

Jango-CHRON.jpg


I mean, WTF, do kids just not take care of their shit these days?
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Fuck Draegan, I'm gonna keep talking about lightsaber fights.

So the only two canon two-bladed lightsaber wielders both lost after first having their saber hilt chopped in half. Seems like an impractical weapon.
 

Titan_sl

shitlord
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Fuck Draegan, I'm gonna keep talking about lightsaber fights.

So the only two canon two-bladed lightsaber wielders both lost after first having their saber hilt chopped in half. Seems like an impractical weapon.
I'm just quoting you because you were part of the conversation, but man, seriously, fuck whoever linked wookiepedia. I'm not even a big fan of star wars, and I now have in depth knowledge of 3 of the Forms of Lightsaber Mastery, The entire history of the Jedi Order(Old and New), and know exactly what the fuck a Master Jedi of the Order is. Thanks for wasting 4 hours of my life jerks.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I'm just quoting you because you were part of the conversation, but man, seriously, fuck whoever linked wookiepedia. I'm not even a big fan of star wars, and I now have in depth knowledge of 3 of the Forms of Lightsaber Mastery, The entire history of the Jedi Order(Old and New), and know exactly what the fuck a Master Jedi of the Order is. Thanks for wasting 4 hours of my life jerks.
I quoted stuff from it, or at least looked up stuff on there for some of my posts, but I think Lithose linking Form 2 was the only time it was directly linked.

So yeah fuck Lithose, that guy sucks.