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Starship Troopers (reboot)
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Runnen
Vyemm Raider
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Bunch of tightwads in this thread who can't seem to enjoy a fun-as-hell gory bug hunt movie.
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Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Oh I love the movie, I've even watched the terrible sequels. It just fails as satire.
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LiquidDeath
Magnus Deadlift the Fucktiger
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The original is a great movie because it was hilariously over-the-top. Anyone who took it as serious commentary is literally retarded, including the director himself.
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Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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I think its due to being so campy. Camp=droll food for the masses. high art must be boring and pretentious!
Audiences loved Starship troopers. hell, it got 3 made for tv sequels, and a cartoon.
I can also say, back in 1990's, I took a film class in college, and the professor spent a day on Starship troopers and was in love with it.
The biggest thing now, is the Libertarian vs Fascism issue of modern takes. Veerhoven is of course famous for "making the movie a satire on Fascism and the military industrial complex". Most would have insisted the bugs were a non-existent threat, and it was totally a fake war started by the Military to justify their own existence.
its now more recently, its become alot more publicly known, the book is a Libertarian utopia. And hilariously, so is the movie. He just slapped on Fascist Imagery to words, deeds and actions that are 100% libertarian, and everyone just took that as Fascist. Its kindof frightening how much imagery alone accounts for peoples perceptions..
that Fascists nightmare world... with full gender and racial equality, and private ownership and republic voting, and 100% safe and organized transitions of power of military/goverment leaders, religious freedom...
Runnen
Vyemm Raider
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Not only that, they made her a fucking nuclear physicist in James Bond!
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Cybsled
Avatar of War Slayer
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Dafuq? Robocop, Total Recall, and Starship Troopers are dripping with great satire.
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Lanx
<Prior Amod>
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Lithose
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Yeah, he's good with satire. The issue with Starship Troopers is he wasn't good with recognizing what fascism actually is. His satire was all based on poking fun at a fascist society, but in reality, Troopers is not a fascist society. Its a militarized (Heavily nationalized) society but still also a highly liberal society, with strong rights and privileges for everyone. So the whole "fascist" angle didn't connect well.
The only 'right' people were denied, really, was the right to vote if they didn't join the military. But its not like the "civilians" were mistreated or a second class, on the contrary, civilians seemed to have a much better life than the leadership class--a life of luxury and stability, with all the privileges and none of the tremendous responsibility. And even the nature of the one 'right' citizens had over civilians seemed like it was well earned (in that if you wanted to vote on things of real consequence, like going to war--you needed to have skin in the game, your own ass needed to be on the line.) They mention in the movie things like childbirth might be restricted and stuff, but we're only SHOWN the good life for civilians (And as said, they clearly have fairly extreme rights and privileges. Rico's dad was tossing his weight around freely wanting to get a citizen in trouble (Rico's teacher) and even looked DOWN on citizens as suckers, while illustrating a life of luxury that awaited Rico if he didn't join the military.)
Veerhoven is great at satire, but he was ideological blinded and confused "militarized" with "fascist". SS Troopers in the movie was just not a fascist society, so all of his satire really fell flat.
Meanwhile though, Robocop? Excellent Anti-corporate satire.
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Zapatta
Krugman's Fax Machine
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They were working on this forever, they had Keanu onboard a dozen years ago but it never materialized. IMDB says its still 'in development'. The SyFy channel was going to do a series, dunno what became of that.
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Cybsled
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Rico's family was the exception, not the rule. The movie makes it clear that the only civilians who can get similar rights to a citizen are the very rich. The movie also clearly states that Rico's family was very rich and basically just bought those rights, which is why his dad didn't want him to join the military. To your point we never actually see civilian life for the most part, but get hints that they do have restrictions (no voting rights, low chance to be allowed to have kids legally...the exception being the very rich being able to buy that). Given the fact that the movie spends time showing kids are being indoctrinated that violence is basically the answer to everything, that sort of sets the tone for their society I would imagine.
There is a pretty thin line between militarized and fascist, though. Plus, look from his perspective: The Netherlands is a pretty benign country from a modern military background. Then WW2 rolls along and he grows up in a country being occupied by Nazis and is exposed to all the aftermath (his movie Black Book is basically about the German occupation and what happened when the Germans lost the war...movie also has grade A+ nudity from Carice van Houten). Easy to see how the two can basically be interchanged from that perspective. The fact he literally has everyone dress in SS-like costumes wasn't a coincidence.
The 3rd movie (which wasn't Veerhoven) dialed the fascist element up massively: people who want peace are labeled as terrorists and executed, for example.
Harshaw
Throbbing Member
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I am pretty sure I've read it. It's just been awhile. After I read Stranger I binged a bunch of Heinlein. Stranger is just one of those books that resonated with me at the time and became a personal favorite of mine.
Zapatta
Krugman's Fax Machine
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I cannot for the life of me remember The Cat Who Walked Through Walls but I know I read it more than once.
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Lithose
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The movie doesn't make any of that clear, that's the issue. Give me a single example where it makes it "clear" that isn't superficial symbolism (Uniforms ect). There is one utterance of the lack of a right in a shower scene (Told, not shown), about having children and becoming a politician; that's it. Otherwise, every person we see coming from civilian life seems happy and healthy, with zero views of hardship or stories of it (In fact, if anything, civilian life is painted as far more privileged and easier--the drill instructors literally tell recruits if they want it easy, to simply walk away and become a civilian again). Frankly, every depiction shows the opposite of fascism. Hell, when they discuss 'citizenship', they don't even talk about the extra rights citizens get--they only talk about responsibilities. (Citizens need to defend civilians with their lives, Citizens need to dedicate themselves to service ect).
In a fascist society, non-citizens (Or people outside those who live in the good graces of the moral state) are treated like absolute garbage--literally as disposable people who should be sacrificed to bring some benefit to the state. In Germany, Slavs and others who were not worthy to be true citizens were not allowed to just be civilians, they were the ones that were conscripted and sent in to do the worst of the fighting, so they could be of some use to the state through their deaths. The idea of that these people (Civilians) would even be allowed to be rich or wealthy in a fascist society would be ridiculous--that just could not happen (So even Rico's parents existing as wealthy non-citizens is a striking visual against the idea of this being a fascist society). In a true fascist society their wealth would be instantly confiscated by the state to ensure a citizen was provided for. The idea that a fascist society would ONLY jeopardize its citizens, while protecting its civilians (Lesser people) is just completely contradictory to what fascism is. Lesser people are vermin in a fascist society--civilians would be used as cannon fodder and slaves, essentially. Like their initial drop should have been a million civilians just to tire the bugs out, THEN citizens should have dropped in--if this was a true fascist society.
I wouldn't say the line is thin between militarism and fascism, they can be wildly distinct--rather they LOOK the same symbolically, so they are easy to mix up; but that's the issue, a lot of complex social systems look the same because humans tend to use symbolism the same way. Its why all of his satire fell flat, because even if these things blend together, your brain picks up the differences within the actual narratives and how people are treated. Militaristic? Yes. Strong emphasis on civic responsibility? Yes. But not fascist. If anything, as said, it was highly liberal. It was effectively space Rome (Republic). A very powerful civic society, but with highly guarded rights as well (And the Nazis used a lot of Roman symbolism). And yeah, he had people in SS uniforms and all the fascist symbolism--but that's the issue, he mistakes symbolism for substance and that's why it fell flat. In Robocop, his anti-corporate message had real substance, we actually see a lot of corporate actions that illustrated the effect on society and it made the satire profound. Troopers? Not so much.
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Raes
Vyemm Raider
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One of my faves, really liked the main character. Been thinking about reading it again, it's been like 30 years or so, lol.
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Mist
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I agree with Lithose. Neither the book nor the movie really depict an explicitly "fascist" society. They both depict a militarized society, and the movie satirizes classic military propaganda.
People forget that the book does a good job poking its own fun at its own hypothetical society. The only passage I ever remember from the book is the one with the doctor:
People forget that the book does a good job poking its own fun at its own hypothetical society. The only passage I ever remember from the book is the one with the doctor:
I asked one of the doctors what percentage of the victims flunked the physical. He looked startled.
"Why, we never fail anyone. The law doesn’t permit us to."
"Huh? I mean, Excuse me, Doctor? Then what’s the point of this goose-flesh parade?"
"Why, the purpose is," he answered, hauling off and hiding me in the knee with a hammer (I kicked him,
but not hard), "to find out what duties you are physically able to perform. But if you came in here in a
wheel chair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find something
silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by
having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath."
"Oh. Uh... Doctor, were you already a doctor when you joined up? Or did they decide you ought to be
a doctor and send you to school?"
"Me?" He seemed shocked. "Youngster, do I look that silly? I’m a civilian employee."
"Oh. Sorry, sir."
"No offense. But military service is for ants. Believe me. I see ‘em go, I see ‘em come back — when
they do come back. I see what it’s done to them. And for what? A purely nominal political privilege that
pays not one centavo and that most of them aren’t competent to use wisely anyhow. Now if they would
let medical men run things — but never mind that; you might think I was talking treason, free speech or
not. But, youngster, if you’ve got savvy enough to count ten, you’ll back out while you still can. Here,
take these papers back to the recruiting sergeant — and remember what I said."
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