The Astronomy Thread

Captain Suave

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I thought the way it worked was that the people on the ship can experience a 1g acceleration essentially forever, and time dilation means as they crowd the speed of light more and more they will seem to go faster even if to an outside observer their acceleration starts to slow. To the ship that can produce a 1g acceleration in space, it would experience (on board the ship) a 1g acceleration all the way to .99999999c, right? But to an outside observer its acceleration would start to slow down at some point.

Yes, I'm intending to agree with that. The closer you approach c your subjective time stretches out infinitely compared to observers outside your reference frame, so your observed acceleration appears to slow. From your perspective distance shrinks, so you get where you're going at 1G and find that eons have passed elsewhere.
 

Ukerric

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Based on relativity, there is diminishing returns to acceleration. The closer to light speed you get, the greater the energy cost as a function of your mass. For that reason it is thought that nothing with any large mass (like a starship) can be accelerated to the speed of light realistically

Even if you kept accelerating, your speed in theory would just be adding more fractions of a percentage towards C, but never actually reaching C.
Remember: with relativity, always say "as seen by".

As seen by you, assuming your using an on-board engine, you are accelerating at 1G. You are still accelerating at 1G, no matter how close to the speed of light you are; you're perfectly comfortable.

As seen by the outside observer, your acceleration seems to drop off (because your time is now running slowly). Yet, the observer sees you're still running your normal engines at peak performance, so they provide the same kinetic energy. Therefore, your mass (as measured by that observer) must be increasing. That's the "diminishing returns" you seem to be speaking of: due to time dilatation, mass seem to be increasing.

And that has nothing to do with large or small mass. The same % of mass increase applies regardless of the mass for a given speed.
 

Aldarion

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I never understand the focus on FTL when if you hit fucking anything at FTL, you're dead. And shit comes at you too fast to react, because FTL.

Forget the physics, its irrelevant.

FTL would be a guaranteed death sentence if you used it for the kind of distances you need FTL to cross. The universe is probably littered with the graves of civilizations that tried that doomed approach. I wonder if any ever tried the more viable strategy, or is life just inherently too impatient?

Generations ships or hibernation, I dont see any other option.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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I never understand the focus on FTL when if you hit fucking anything at FTL, you're dead. And shit comes at you too fast to react, because FTL.

Forget the physics, its irrelevant.

FTL would be a guaranteed death sentence if you used it for the kind of distances you need FTL to cross. The universe is probably littered with the graves of civilizations that tried that doomed approach. I wonder if any ever tried the more viable strategy, or is life just inherently too impatient?

Generations ships or hibernation, I dont see any other option.
But by that logic, if you hit something at half the speed of light aren't you still pretty much dead?
 
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Aldarion

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Probably! I doubt 0.5c is even possible anyway and if it is, it'd be way too fast to use safely.

I'm saying that fundamentally I don't think the answer to interstellar travel is to move so fast you can't even see obstacles in your path, let alone avoid them.

The answer has to be prepare for a long trip.
 

Cad

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But by that logic, if you hit something at half the speed of light aren't you still pretty much dead?
Yes, but I think the argument is that at 0.5c you can actually see ahead of you so if you need to change course ever so slightly to avoid something you could. Thats for a wandering planetoid, or something big enough to see.

Hitting anything bigger than a dust particle at 0.5c seems like it would be a death sentence anyway though and you likely couldn't see those.
 
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Sylas

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I mean its all speculation anyway, it's physically impossible to accelerate to the speed of light, to fuel a ship to even approach it, to find a source of energy that can produce infinite power, etc.

It's all perpetual motion machines, matter replicators, infinite energy machines, magic.

But even pretending that any of it were possible its not even space dust you need to worry about. The electromagnetic force that holds atoms and molecules together only moves at the speed of light so your fucking space ship would fall apart the moment you hit c anyway, regardless if you even hit anything.

Figuring out ways to shrink things that can't be shrunk (blackholes) so you can fold spacetime or figuring out how to move faster than matter can move (ftl) is all just mental maturation.

Aldarion is correct that generation ships are the only way we leave the solar system and we'll have to make very frequent stops to refuel (ice belts), and thats once we figure out a renewable source of gas for ion drives, there aren't gas stations to refill xenon tanks in space either. We only do it if the solar system is going to no longer be habitable, that's why no aliens have colonized the galaxy yet.

Good news is we know that shit doesn't work, cus if it were possible it would have already been done.
 
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Cybsled

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I never understand the focus on FTL when if you hit fucking anything at FTL, you're dead. And shit comes at you too fast to react, because FTL.

Most proposed ways to travel FTL don't actually involve your ship traveling faster than the speed of light. Rather, you're exploiting characteristics of space itself (folding space) or using something like a wormhole to effectively travel faster than light in terms of how long it takes to get from point a to point b
 

Kharzette

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Space is very empty so your odds of hitting stuff are small (other than individual hydrogen atoms). Even when galaxies with billions of stars collide, the odds of a star hitting another are very small. There are also several large voids that would be easier to get through.

The ice strategy may not be enough even for that though. I don't think we will know till we try it. Maybe the the ordinary starlight of nearby stars blue shifted up is enough to boil away miles of ice in a matter of lightyears.

All of this stuff will need staggering amounts of money and time to develop, and the propulsion tech may never pan out. Propellentless does break or bend Newton's laws.

Another big engineeering problem is heat. Power generation and engines will create alot of waste heat and there's no good way to get rid of it in space. The only way I've come up with is very long cooling fins that extend miles out the back of the craft to radiate it away.
 

Captain Suave

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Practically speaking, physically transporting large masses over light years just seems like something the universe is hostile towards. Long before that problem is solved, if it can be, a civilization would expand by sending Von Neumann probes and printing copies at a new location. That doesn't do a lot for the residents of the home system, though. If I had to bet, I think virtual worlds are the end state of advanced life. It takes waaaay less energy than doing things for real.
 
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Void

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Lots of people on this board think that it is trivial to cross vast distances in space, because countless ships have done it and are flying around in our atmosphere every day just for fun. Why don't we ask them how they surpassed these monumental engineering roadblocks?
 

Moogalak

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Lots of people on this board think that it is trivial to cross vast distances of ocean, because countless ships have done it and are falling off the edge of the earth every day just for fun. Why don't we ask them how they surpassed these monumental engineering roadblocks?
Fyp
 
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ToeMissile

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Lots of people on this board think that it is trivial to cross vast distances in space, because countless ships have done it and are flying around in our atmosphere every day just for fun. Why don't we ask them how they surpassed these monumental engineering roadblocks?
I would give benefit of the doubt, more that things will get figured out eventually. Assuming we make it through whatever combination of self inflicted or random disasters that come along.
 

Kirun

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Good news is we know that shit doesn't work, cus if it were possible it would have already been done.
I imagine the collective zeitgeist in 1880 felt similarly about flight and air travel as well.

It was thought impossible to ever be able to generate enough lift to keep a "plane" airborne at one point in time.
 
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Cad

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I mean its all speculation anyway, it's physically impossible to accelerate to the speed of light, to fuel a ship to even approach it, to find a source of energy that can produce infinite power, etc.

It's all perpetual motion machines, matter replicators, infinite energy machines, magic.

But even pretending that any of it were possible its not even space dust you need to worry about. The electromagnetic force that holds atoms and molecules together only moves at the speed of light so your fucking space ship would fall apart the moment you hit c anyway, regardless if you even hit anything.

Figuring out ways to shrink things that can't be shrunk (blackholes) so you can fold spacetime or figuring out how to move faster than matter can move (ftl) is all just mental maturation.

Aldarion is correct that generation ships are the only way we leave the solar system and we'll have to make very frequent stops to refuel (ice belts), and thats once we figure out a renewable source of gas for ion drives, there aren't gas stations to refill xenon tanks in space either. We only do it if the solar system is going to no longer be habitable, that's why no aliens have colonized the galaxy yet.

Good news is we know that shit doesn't work, cus if it were possible it would have already been done.
In theory, couldn't you make a particle accelerator that pushes hydrogen atoms out the back at 0.9-0.95c which is then powered by a fusion reactor that also uses hydrogen for fuel - granted, this is limited fuel, but with the specific impulse you'd get from that type of exhaust velocity and the length of time you could power your ship with a few hundred tons of hydrogen, it could go pretty well depending on how small/light you can make a particle accelerator, how many atoms it can accelerate at a time, and how small/light you can make your fusion reactor. These seem like engineering problems though not exotic physics. You'd need to ionize your hydrogen so that you could use electromagnetic particle accelerators, and you could exhaust a proton beam directly just like rocket exhaust now.

Obviously you'd have to hugely scale up particle accelerators to be able to have decent thrust for a ship of any scale, but again this seems like an engineering problem. I ran some numbers on Grok (trigger warning) and came up with the following:

With a 10 TW fusion reactor and a particle accelerator exhausting protons at 0.95c, the spacecraft can have a total initial mass of approximately 120,240 kg, including 75,240 kg of hydrogen fuel and a final mass of 45,000 kg (40,000 kg for the reactor and accelerator + 5,000 kg payload). The mission achieves a total proper time of ~18.21 years to reach Alpha Centauri (4.37 light-years), with an accelerate-coast-decelerate profile reaching v=0.995c. The 10 TW reactor provides sufficient thrust (~333,800 N) to make the mission feasible within the 10–20 year proper time goal.

I had it assume the particle accelerator and fusion reactor would each weigh 20 tons. In reality, who fucking knows, we're talking future tech. A 10TW reactor is also completely insane-balls power, but just saying, this is engineering, not fantasy shit. And since this ship is accelerating to .995c, you could actually go a lot of places, not just Alpha Centauri, and the onboard ship time doesn't change "that" much due to time dilation.

Edit: I had Grok recalculate for an exhaust velocity of 0.9999c since I just made up 0.95c thinking it would be less power intensive, but it's not. Actual particle accelerators accelerate protons to 0.99999999c today, so if you re-do the math for a 0.9999c exhaust speed rocket with the same 10TW reactor you cut the fuel mass needed tremendously:

For the same final mass mf=45,000kg, the fuel mass drops from 75,240 kg to 4,725 kg, and acceleration time to 0.995c decreases from ~9.07 years to ~3.75 years per phase, significantly improving mission feasibility within the 10–20 year proper time goal. You could add a lot more payload for the fuel mass you can cut out.
 
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Sylas

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i'm not really sure I follow? if you are fusing hydrogen as fuel for the energy that hydrogen is fusing into helium, and that matter is contained within your reactor to maintain fusion mass anyway so you aren't using it as a propellant? Maybe you can bleed it off somehow with constant influx of hydrogen into the reactor to maintain mass...idk first step is a cold fusion reactor so we're already beyond our current tech anyway, who knows how it will work...maybe you can use helium as the propellant.

Also your acceleration is a product of your reactive mass so you need to take into consideration how long it will take you to reach 0.95c it would take you years of constant acceleration to reach "cruising speed". Propulsion is still limited to how much mass you can shoot <---that way in order to go ----> this way.
 

Cad

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i'm not really sure I follow? if you are fusing hydrogen as fuel for the energy that hydrogen is fusing into helium, and that matter is contained within your reactor to maintain fusion mass anyway so you aren't using it as a propellant? Maybe you can bleed it off somehow with constant influx of hydrogen into the reactor to maintain mass...idk first step is a cold fusion reactor so we're already beyond our current tech anyway, who knows how it will work...maybe you can use helium as the propellant.

Also your acceleration is a product of your reactive mass so you need to take into consideration how long it will take you to reach 0.95c it would take you years of constant acceleration to reach "cruising speed". Propulsion is still limited to how much mass you can shoot <---that way in order to go ----> this way.
Hydrogen would be both the propellant and the fuel for the reactor. Yes you would eventually run out, but you'd have a specific impulse of 3.057×10^7 seconds. Compare that with conventional rockets that have a specific impulse of 200-500 seconds.

With the exhaust velocity being so high, you don't need very much propellant mass. You do need a honking big ass reactor to make the power required to accelerate particles to 0.9999c. You'd need 3.x years of acceleration and deceleration time at each end, and your reactor would have to run for life support and other things during the coast phase.

I'm happy to try to realize what I'm missing in this other than the obvious engineering challenges, but this should be possible with today's physics, nothing super exotic.

There's definitely some things that need to be invented/extremely streamlined to make it work - you need to enrich your hydrogen to deuterium/tritium for fusion, but both of those are possible given the electrical power available and the reactor (for tritium). You also need to ionize your hydrogen so that electromagnetic particle accelerators can shoot it out at the back at .9999c.
 
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Captain Suave

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The electromagnetic force that holds atoms and molecules together only moves at the speed of light so your fucking space ship would fall apart the moment you hit c anyway, regardless if you even hit anything.

I don't think this makes your ship any weaker, but it does make the propagation of causality slower. The fundamental forces being limited to c is part of the perception of time slowing. Information flow between particles has a speed limit, so time underclocks (relative to everything else) the faster you go as more of that speed budget is absorbed by your travel.

(This is also why some people say time is emergent and doesn't fundamentally exist. There is no "objective time" independent of the rate of propagation of information around us.)

This guy covers most of the ideas batted around in the last few pages. He derives time dilation from the Pythagorean Theorem in a very intuitive way:



Also, why distance shrinks:



Maybe the Fermi paradox is solved by advanced species achieving lightpseed travel. They're all out there, just completely frozen in our subjective time as they fast-forward into the infinite future.
 
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Cad

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The hydrogen-powered starship idea also benefits from being able to be refueled from any planet you could get water from, or any gas giant you could siphon atmosphere from.
 
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