The Big Bad Console Thread - Sway your Station with an Xboner !

Foggy

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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This is both true and untrue in today's environment. The pace of PC performance development is still growing exponentially but look at modern gaming and see just how many games will run successfully on 5 year old computers. PC performance has reached a state where additional upgrades are not significantly impacting PC game development.

The largest barriers to gaming right now is probably or slow internet infrastructure.
People still can't connect the dots between consoles being at the end of a long life cycle and pc games not making huge improvements in graphics? Games still run on 5 year old computers because the vast majority of games are designed to run on 8 year old consoles. Instead look at BF3 which could bring slightly dated computers to their knees on low settings.

The moment the next gen comes out nobody will be running new games on old computers. And then over time the same thing will happen, PCs will pull insanely ahead in power with little enhancement to games because they will be designed for consoles with dated hardware.
 

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
I know I'm probably mostly on my own with this but I see the end of consoles and PC's being separate entities.

I see Microsoft being fully enamored with the idea of the walled garden and the idea of an app store for all purchases. Cutting out the middle men and getting developers to release on single platform would solidify their dominance in gaming and give them a cut of hardware, software etc and retain full control.

They could go full Apple on everyone, lock everything down and sue the shit out of anyone that put their OS on other machines (hackintosh precedences) all the while making shit tons of money as gamers really won't have any other choice. Especially since most of us already own a 360 or some other console. Really the thing holding this back are the mouse and keyboard controls and key genres like MMO and RTS. That is going to change.

What I see this next gen doing is simply bridging more of the gaps between PC and consoles. Internet, media, TV, other storage and pc like control options. Solidify the use of these machines for the casuals replacing PCs and start migrating PC gamers over with the controls and one box (cheaper) setup. This allows them to also start pushing digital downloads more and get people into the one box mentality but most importantly get you tied to the eco system.

Once the last bastion of PC gaming dominance is gone (keyboard mouse and MMO / FPS / RTS) there will be little reason for people to keep their PC upgraded for gaming. They won't care that Microsoft is making money hand over fist because it will be convenient and most of all cheaper (at least the hardware). Monthly pricing for hardware and live service even if a fuck job will get people buying and once they are tied in it will be hard to get them out. For some its all about the payments and Microsoft knows that.

After this next gen comes to pass they could also let the current PC makers license to make the set hardware (think apple like upgrade cycles) but with strict hardware resctrictions. Don't want to play ball? No problem we'll make it ourselves and you can't put windows on PC's anymore. End result Microsoft gains shit tons more control, more money and most importantly they are relevant again. This leverage can be used for the other devices down the road as they start to suck less.

Can't do that you say? Bull shit because Apple has been paving the way for closed eco systems since the Iphone and their PC's. They can do it so can Microsoft.

What about businesses? No game version of the same box. Simple, throw away when done and say good bye to any conflicts / software issues since it all runs on the same hardware refreshed once a year. Development will be cake.

Digital downloads and single hardware specifications have been the holy grail for microsoft and developers for a long time. No other vendors, no third party sales, no rental market, super easy to develop for because there is very little variation etc. Also on a locked down system piracy will be MUCH MUCH more difficult. Lots of buzzwords in there for CEO's looking to improve their bottom line as they sell their soul to these closed systems.


TLDR:

There is a lot more money to be made in a closed eco system and Microsoft has a hard on for Apple. It wouldn't surprise me to see them merge the PC and 360 lines into a single house which they take a lot more profits.
 

Rombo

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Red rings forever killed my faith in consoles. Am done with this bullshit. Besides, pc is where its at for me, mouse and keyboard baby. Plus my gf can watch all the tv she wants and am not in her way.
 

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
Red rings forever killed my faith in consoles. Am done with this bullshit. Besides, pc is where its at for me, mouse and keyboard baby. Plus my gf can watch all the tv she wants and am not in her way.
Make a console compatible with a mouse and keyboard and its a game changer. Realize it will plug into your monitor or TV just fine. I think a lot more people will consider dumping PC's for gaming if it happens. Especially if there is an app store for all the other goodies and third party software.

Its also a shit ton easier to RMA a single box for a new one than to figure out if its your MB, ram, video card, power supply that is faulty.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
They won't be obsolete as long as there is a market for AAA games and until mobile devices are able to really handle those consoles aren't going anywhere. This is definitely not the last generation.
AAA games are destroying the (console) gaming industry. Look at the amount of money one costs to develop, and then look at the typical income if you'renotmaking CODBLOPS 46: Army Recruitment Edition.
 

Furious

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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PC's, tv's and consoles all should have been merged a long time ago. I find it stupid that I still have to run an hdmi cable off my pc to watch the shows I want.
 

Araxen

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Make a console compatible with a mouse and keyboard and its a game changer. Realize it will plug into your monitor or TV just fine. I think a lot more people will consider dumping PC's for gaming if it happens. Especially if there is an app store for all the other goodies and third party software.

Its also a shit ton easier to RMA a single box for a new one than to figure out if its your MB, ram, video card, power supply that is faulty.
You can already use a mouse on the PS3. Unless the consoles comes packed in with a mouse and keyboard it doesn't matter.
 

Vorph

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Unless you want your PC to be bogged down with so much DRM that it makes Apple devices look like open platforms by comparison, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

What I find most disturbing about this thread is that the people talking about the extremely retarded and [thankfully] impractical ideas actually sound like they want that shit to happen.
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
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What people don't really consider is the fact that there exists a CPU and gpu ceiling on mobile devices and it is cooling. If you think that they can infinitely expand these devices to be competitive with consoles and pcs you are sadly mistaken. I wouldn't be surprised if we are already incredibly close to maxing out at our current hardware designs.
 

kegkilla

The Big Mod
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What people don't really consider is the fact that there exists a CPU and gpu ceiling on mobile devices and it is cooling. If you think that they can infinitely expand these devices to be competitive with consoles and pcs you are sadly mistaken. I wouldn't be surprised if we are already incredibly close to maxing out at our current hardware designs.
there are certainly hurdles to overcome, but it's not a matter or whether or not they will be, it's a matter of when.

what the future holds is everyone's smart phone device being docked with a monitor to become a PC, car to become a GPS device/assistant, and TVs to become a media player and eventually gaming console.

obviously gaming console will be the last, but it will happen, I have foreseen it.
 

Ganthorn

N00b
612
28
People still can't connect the dots between consoles being at the end of a long life cycle and pc games not making huge improvements in graphics? Games still run on 5 year old computers because the vast majority of games are designed to run on 8 year old consoles. Instead look at BF3 which could bring slightly dated computers to their knees on low settings.

The moment the next gen comes out nobody will be running new games on old computers. And then over time the same thing will happen, PCs will pull insanely ahead in power with little enhancement to games because they will be designed for consoles with dated hardware.
This is very very true. My PC isn't top of the line or anything but its pretty decent. I have been able to play just about every game with the settings maxed every slider maxed etc. The first few games to finally stress my machine were BF3, Farcry 3 and Hitman 3 and I believe FC3 and HM3 use the same engine. I have heard that FC3/HM3 sometimes even have fps issues on the consoles. They have to design these games to run on 7+ year old hardware unless they want it to be PC exclusive. Once the consoles are near todays PCs we will finally see some more bleeding edge stuff and the cycle will continue.
 

velk

Trakanon Raider
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What people don't really consider is the fact that there exists a CPU and gpu ceiling on mobile devices and it is cooling. If you think that they can infinitely expand these devices to be competitive with consoles and pcs you are sadly mistaken. I wouldn't be surprised if we are already incredibly close to maxing out at our current hardware designs.
This is pretty much a non-statement - of course anyone that thinks something can expand infinitely is mistaken, and obviously the current designs are maxing heat dissipation for that design, because that is a serious issue for them that they have to design around. That doesn't mean anything though, as that has been true of almost every generation of smart phone, and they have continued to massively increase in capabilities regardless.
 

Szlia

Member
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From a bean counting perspective, it makes a lot of sense that future generations of console should last longer and longer. Unless the business model massively changes, there are a number of variable that were true in 1985 are true today and will be true in 2030.

One of these variable is theinstalled base. I doubt any single home console will ever sell more than the PS2, but on a generation basis the market is somewhat expending (currently, PS2 + XBOX > PS3 + X360 but the PS3 will still be sold for a number of years and the Wii opening a market of its own changed the dynamic).

Another of these variable is the sellingprice of games: The price of the standard new game has decreased over the years and the average even more so with the re-release of best sellers at reduced price (something that was introduced for consoles with the PS1 if I remember well).

A third is thedevelopment costs: No magic here, these are on the rise. The more powerful the console, the more detailed the assets, the more time it takes to make them. This is mitigated by know-how and the increase in power of the tools used to create these assets. Something to keep in mind: it took one day to create a car for GT on the PS1, one week on the PS2.


At this point you might see a dream breaking thing: the AAA game, the game that tries to make the most out of the power of the hardware, is constrained by cold hard bean counting to the point where the power of the hardware will become irrelevant, because the cost of making full use of the hardware will be too big to ever hope to turn a benefit (not to mention that from a visual fidelity perspective, there is a brutal diminishing return on power investment).


Let's add a fourth variable, theinitial investment: when you start working on a new console, you need to buy new dev tools, you need to learn to use them, you need to figure out the in and outs of the new hardware and this takes money and time, and time is money.

Consider this fourth variable and the fact the installed base does not go magically from 0 to MAX in a day and you can see that the longer a generation last and the less of an impact this cost has. On top of that, each new game in a generation benefits from the know how, the tools and the engines created from the previous games. With the increased asset creation costs, longer generations give more chance to publishers to actually make money.

That being said, one of the bright mind at the head of Ubi Soft wished for new consoles a couple years ago, to create excitement and energize the market, because it seems consumers simply grow bored of their hardware if it lasts too long. Also, business models do change: DLC, sponsored exclusives, retailer funded exclusive DLC, subscription based games, in game advertisement... these are all tools to make it viable to create high budget games.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
That being said, one of the bright mind at the head of Ubi Soft wished for new consoles a couple years ago, to create excitement and energize the market, because it seems consumers simply grow bored of their hardware if it lasts too long.
It's not just Ubisoft either. Pretty much every third party developer has said that this console generation has lasted way too long, it's a bad thing to have them last this long, and that they don't want it to happen again. Another big thing mentioned by them is that new console generations are the best thing for launching new IPs and taking risks and that the current length of this generation has really stagnated that.

Sony/Microsoft may want longer generations, but no game developer does and they've made themselves pretty vocal about that. The big third party studios also told Sony and Microsoft that if they don't use standard hardware this coming generation that they could go fuck themselves (this drastically reduces the cost of producing multiplatform games with the Xbox/Playstation/PC all using an X86 architecture base). Hopefully their influence in making hardware more standard will also lead to generations that are back to a 5 year cycle.
 

Szlia

Member
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The problem is that pretty soon you will not be able to generate excitement with new hardware on its technical merits. Not only because of the cost of using the resources of the hardware, but because of the diminishing return of power for visual fidelity. There are 4k screens looming in the somewhat distant horizon, but once they are broadly accepted (in 2025 considering the infrastructure and data storage evolution that need to take place to make it a viable format) it's game over on that front because the human eye has its limits too.

For excitement to be maintained, the model needs to be broken. It could be through the interface (see EyeToy, Wii, Kinect, PS Move, WiiU, etc), but then developers also face a problem of common denominator (a lesser one though if art assets and graphic engines can be reused on the different machines). Console makers also face a relevancy problem: it's hard to make a new control scheme that is not perceived as gimmicky and has depth and lasting power (see lack of Kinect and PSMove games, poor WiiU sales, etc). Obviously, with the PS4 Sony tries some of that with the track-pad (which sounds oddly placed at the moment) and also goes the semi-desperate gimmick move with the share button (my pre-facebook teenage years may be speaking here, but dedicating a button on a controller to share pictures and video clips sounds absolutely retarded and forced down the throat of the engineering by a crappy marketing team).

Another possibility is a major change in graphic engines technology that would provide a leap in visual fidelity, require a lot of horsepower while not making the art creation bill explode. We saw a kind of similar idea with physics dedicated cards on the PC and stereoscopic 3D (stillborn for the n-th time). A possible evolution could be in lightning engines, but again, artists and current engines and are pretty good at tricking and faking with limited processing costs, so doing less of that and relying on the processing power more might not be that huge of a visual leap. Another could be tessellation algorithms that cost a lot of processing resources but could improve visual fidelity with little monetary cost. We also now there are several non-polygonal ways of handling 3D but, as far as I know, all come with severe drawbacks (notably when it comes to animation), making a post-polygonal era somewhat unlikely without a major breakthrough.


Then again, I guess you can manufacture excitement through marketing even if there is little to be actually excited about...
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Then again, I guess you can manufacture excitement through marketing even if there is little to be actually excited about...
That'sexactlyhow Apple makes it's money. Selling people new console hardware that is only 300-400 bucks every 5 years is not hard, especially if Microsoft really pushes the cell phone contract style $99 + lease route.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
This coming generation is going to be interesting to watch, anyway.Relativelycommon hardware plus ridiculous one-user DRM means that if developers can't stop going bankrupt then it's not the consoles or the consumers that are the problem.
 

Scyfi

N00b
601
0
what the future holds is everyone's smart phone device being docked with a monitor to become a PC, car to become a GPS device/assistant, and TVs to become a media player and eventually gaming console.

obviously gaming console will be the last, but it will happen, I have foreseen it.
While that will be a glorious day, the moment it breaks or it gets stolen.... *something about all your eggs in one basket*
 

kegkilla

The Big Mod
<Banned>
11,320
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i'm sure everything will be backed up via cloud computing, the devices will mostly serve to deliver processing power.