The Big Bad Console Thread - Sway your Station with an Xboner !

foddon

Silver Knight of the Realm
747
5
Don't forget that they're trashing all of your XBLA purchases while not even giving a hint of trying to do something to carry them over. Sony at least has said they're going to try and emulate them. MS just said fuck off and like it... we'll just sell you them again.
 

foddon

Silver Knight of the Realm
747
5
For me, the family thing could be a game changer. I'll just add all my close friends/family to my "family" and we can share the games we buy (except for multiplayer obviously). None of us game enough to worry much about needing to play the game at the same time so that won't be an issue.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
I expect the family thing to have catches that they're not stating ATM there's no way they'll let one copy be used by 10 people in different households without a hell of a catch.

Only theory I can think of is they might allow it past a certain age for a game to semicompete with PSPlus.
 

foddon

Silver Knight of the Realm
747
5
Man, what the fuck happens if your XBL account gets banned for some reason? Up shit creek without a paddle
 

velk

Trakanon Raider
2,538
1,127
The Xbox Defense Force answer would be that Steam's restrictions are just as bad, if not worse, on many of these points.

I'd point out that Steam's minimum heartbeat goes for a hell of a lot longer and assume the game prices still drop much faster on Steam.
I don't actually use it, but I'm not aware of Steam's offline mode having a 'heartbeat' - as far as I know, you set it up once per game and it stays like that permanently.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
I'm going to quote/link a few things here explaining why the Xbox One's drm is bad and how the games industry is pretty fucked up at the moment.

First up, there was a really great post by faceless007 on Neogaf.

Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a per-industry basis, not because it's inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it's a threat to the industry's health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations--consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

I don't think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that sometimes industries die and that's the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry inherently worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn't properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what "property ownership" means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn't good enough, and the way you solve it is by making a better product, not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can't find a way to make money off the primary market -- even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and "expanding the audience" and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer -- then, if I may be so blunt, fuck it. It doesn't deserve our money in the first place. If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can go to hell. It doesn't need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry's problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the most likely gamers to trade in games quickly were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they're discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it's just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that's why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn't at this end.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=1361

Next, Rob Fahey at gamesindustry.biz wrote a great article titled 'Pre-owned crackdown is a sad excuse for business innovation'. The comments on the article are worth a read, too.

Taking away our right to share games will solve none of the industry's enormous financial and business model problems; it may even make them worse

We're far from the end of the story regarding second-hand games and the next generation of consoles. Microsoft promises to have more information to reveal and implies that gamers will be placated by these further revelations; the only reasonable reaction to this nudge-and-wink follow-up to last week's public relations disaster is to raise an amused eyebrow and imagine the chaos within the company as they try to figure out exactly what the hell they're going to reveal when the time comes. Sony, meanwhile, may well be watching with some trepidation - it's entirely possible that the PS4 also restricts second-hand sales in some fashion. Sony has always said that PS4 will play second-hand games, but hasn't been drawn on detail regarding that stance - and the halo the company is presently wearing (no pun intended) will evaporate rapidly if it transpires that it's also planning such an unpopular move.

"An industry which thinks it's reasonable to wage war on perfectly normal consumer behaviour in this way is an industry that's seriously dysfunctional"
Stepping back to consider the wider picture, we're looking at a very bleak future for pre-owned or sharing of software. Steam is already the de facto platform for PC games, and it offers no second-hand sales channel and no method of sharing software with friends (and I mean that in the traditional "borrow my game" sense, not the euphemistic "sharing" as in piracy). iOS and Google Play games are locked to the user account. Now Xbox One (and possibly PS4) games will also prevent you from sharing games with friends and place hefty restrictions (and costs) on second-hand sales.

This isn't just going to impact on the racks and racks of second-hand games at game retail stores, it's going to have a major impact on gaming culture overall. It means no more buying a game and lending it to a friend when you're finished, or going halves on a copy of something both of you want to play. It means no more going over to someone's house and browsing their shelves for something to borrow - and by extension, removes a major impetus for many people to collect games in the first place. It means no more Lovefilm or other rental services for games, no more communal caches of games in the office that colleagues can dip into. Eventually, terribly sadly, it could even mean authorisation servers somewhere being turned off and an entire generation of games becoming inaccessible - a grim scenario but one which has already happened on a smaller scale with the switch-off of other DRM-backed systems.

There's little point in going into any huge depth about why this is all a bloody awful idea - suffice it to say that as a consumer myself, I don't think I'll be buying an Xbox One if its DRM system turns out to be as draconian, abusive and intrusive as it presently seems, and similar decisions by Sony would equally nix a PS4 purchase. Given that I've bought every console in every generation for almost 20 years, that's a fairly significant departure, but it's no idle chest-beating on my part. If you take out the ability to lend and borrow games, the process of sharing enjoyment and entertainment that's been at the heart of my gaming hobby since it began, I don't know that my time or investment in consoles is justified any more. It's terribly sad to think that key decision makers in our industry are now apparently of the impression that "social" in terms of prancing around like a drunken tit in front of a camera is the future of the medium, while "social" in terms of pressing a game box into a friend's hand with a gleam in your eyes and words of praise and enthusiasm on your lips is to be frowned upon and treated as criminal.

"The cost of developing AAA games has risen and will rise again, but the cost of marketing games has absolutely soared"
What's more useful is to ask how on earth we got ourselves into this position, because an industry which thinks it's reasonable to wage war on perfectly normal consumer behaviour in this way is an industry that's seriously dysfunctional. It's easy, and very tempting, to blame the avarice of publishers and platform holders. There's no denying that some of this market's biggest firms are - like so many modern companies - rather over-padded with MBA-toting examples of human mediocrity whose understanding of the creative industry they've joined is zero but whose capacity to string together meaningless corporate buzzwords into arcane incantations summoning forth utterly rapacious and awful business practices is practically limitless. This is not to say that creative and excellent business minds aren't also at work in games, but they're very outnumbered by sub-par chancers spouting corporate drivel, and as such this entire area of the industry effectively wears a giant "kick me" sign that lights up in bright neon every time something like the Xbox One reveal or an egregious abuse of IAP in a full-price game occurs.

Yet even if swearing about people with expensive suits, MBAs and not a jot of real wit or intelligence to share between them is cathartic, it doesn't actually get us to the bottom of the problem. The reality is that the crack-down on sharing and second-hand sales is part of a wider malaise. A wide swathe of high-end game development is struggling to pay the bills - that's a simple reality. The cost of developing AAA games has risen and will rise again as new consoles demand higher-quality assets and new technology R&D, but the cost of marketing games has absolutely soared - and as Square Enix' Yosuke Matsuda pointed out in a revealing statement this week, the cost of actually getting games into retail and sold through to consumers has also soared. Everyone poked fun at Square Enix' huge sales targets for games like Tomb Raider and Hitman: Absolution, but Matsuda's assessment of what happened to those games is sobering - as are the frankly enormous figures the company had to earmark for marketing and retail-related costs such as returns allowance.

This is reality; something is utterly broken at the heart of the AAA business. It's entirely possible to put a game on the market which sells millions of copies, easily covering its development budget, and still not make enough money to justify the outlay once you factor in all the other huge costs. Developers have always felt screwed when they looked at games selling millions of units while royalties failed to materialise thanks to the creative accounting methods many publishers borrowed from Hollywood. Now, publishers are starting to feel a similar pinch, as games which should have been a safe bet see their profits evaporate in a perfect storm of additional costs and revenue drains. The cost of making a game has risen a bit; the cost of getting someone to buy a game has risen a lot, and unless your franchise is a Call of Duty scale monster, the whole thing is looking increasingly unsustainable.

"Killing off the second hand market isn't going to earn the industry a moment's respite - if anything, it'll hasten the decline and death of the existing business model"
Is the answer to crack down on customers sharing games with friends? No, of course not; that's the frightened lashing out of a wounded animal. Is it to crack down on the second hand market? Again, no. There's absolutely no question but that companies like GameStop and GAME have spent the past decade rabidly gnawing on the hand that fed them, but this ill-conceived crusade against second-hand sales punishes consumers for the industry's own years-long failure to rein in the transgressions of its most cavalier and self-interested retail "partners".

Is there, however, a problem that needs a solution? Yes. The AAA business simply has to change; the existing model is broken and a new one needs to be found. Matsuda says that Square Enix is going to experiment with ideas like Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight, among others, in the hope of finding a new approach to creating games that makes financial sense. I'm not convinced that crowdfunding is a viable model for big publishers in the long term, but I'm absolutely convinced that something new needs to be tried. How games are funded, created, distributed and ultimately enjoyed is going to have to change radically in the next few years, or there simply isn't going to be a AAA market outside of a handful of established, ultra high-budget franchises. Killing off the second hand market isn't even going to earn the industry a moment's respite - if anything, I suspect that it'll hasten the decline and death of the existing business model. I don't expect that any company which isn't rethinking its AAA funding, development and release model to still be in business five years from now.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ess-innovation

And finally, Eurogamer's Tom Brawell has written an opinion piece titled 'Microsoft kills game ownership and expects us to smile'. It's a good read.

Almost exactly a year ago, at the end of an E3 press conference in which Microsoft heralded fitness software, Kinect, Internet Explorer, Bing and dying action games as the future of entertainment, I wrote that anyone who has paid attention to Microsoft's business over the years should not be surprised by its apparent lack of self-awareness.

"If we are entertained by what Microsoft chooses to do for its own gain," I suggested, "then that is simply a happy coincidence."

Guess what? The coincidence is over.


The fact that Microsoft's policies governing game ownership, sharing and privacy are not surprising does not make them any less devastating to consumer rights, should they be formally adopted and become a standard. They sacrifice our freedom to own and trade games for no other reason than corporate self-interest.

To save you skimming large tracts of condescending prose about how much Microsoft loves and respects you as a human wallet, here is a summary:

You do not own the games you buy. You license them.
Discs are only used to install and then license games and do not imply ownership.
People can play games installed on your console whether you're logged in or not.
10 people can be authorised to play these games on a different Xbox One via the cloud, but not at the same time, similar to iTunes authorised devices.
Publishers decide whether you can trade in your games and may charge for this.
Publishers decide whether you can give a game you own to someone for free, and this only works if they have been on your friends list for 30 days.
Your account allows you to play the games you license on any console.
Your Xbox One must connect to the internet every 24 hours to keep playing games.
When playing on another Xbox One with your account, this is reduced to one hour.
Live TV, Blu-ray and DVD movies are exempt from these internet requirements.
Loaning and renting games will not be possible at launch, but Microsoft is "exploring the possibilities".
Microsoft may change these policies or discontinue them at any point.
There is also a promise that Microsoft Studios games will all allow you to trade them in and give them away for free, bringing a whole new emphasis to the expression, "It's the least we could do!"

The only positive thing in the whole document is confirmation that you can turn off Kinect and its data will never be uploaded without your permission. Let us all applaud Microsoft's "OK, fine!" decision not to intrude on our privacy.

The suggestion that these changes to game ownership have been taken to combat piracy or limit the damage that used game sales do to the primary market do not stand up to much scrutiny - at our most charitable, we can say that the data is merely inconclusive, but analysis of other industries that have dealt with these issues for much longer is pretty clear that the overall benefits at least balance out the risks of allowing piracy and used markets to flourish.

The more likely reason for this unprecedented new attitude to console game ownership and sharing is that Microsoft wants to turn its game business into the equivalent of iTunes. The signs are already there in the merger of Xbox, Windows and Windows Phone app stores and the decision to run Xbox games off a Virtual Machine 'game OS' within Xbox One, which could easily be included in new hardware derived from the same architectural roadmap.

This is a neat business way of getting everything to line up. It is done in service to Microsoft's corporate objectives. It is not even done with any particular malice towards you and I. Nevertheless, it signals the most significant divergence to date of Microsoft's goals for the Xbox business from our own. It also puts an unspecified expiry date on every Xbox One game ever made and gives you no control over it. Yes, at a point in time where consoles are becoming less relevant, Microsoft's solution is to make them less permanent.

The addition of cloud gaming functions, the avoidance of DVD or Blu-ray disc access times, the convenience of global access - these are the rewards we are being offered for our complicity in Microsoft's decision to eradicate the concept of console game ownership. They are not good enough and very little ever will be.

Digital marketplaces like Netflix, iTunes and the present Xbox Live are a good thing, but they should be additive. They allow us to form a different kind of relationship with art - a more convenient, expansive and often cheaper one that includes better tools for exploration beyond the borders of our current interest. We should and I do celebrate these things. But a critical reason that I accept them is that I still have the option to own an untouchable physical copy of the things I find there as well.

You can say this is no worse than what Steam does, you can say that it is no worse than what a lot of 'content' companies do, and those statements are true, but they do not engage with the most important detail of this news, which is what we are being told to give up in exchange for this new arrangement: the opportunity to form tangible, lasting relationships with art that matters to us. If you never had that, then why would you miss it? But we do. And soon we won't.

Collectors will still be able to buy Xbox One games on disc, of course, and we may line them up happily on our shelves so that our friends and families can admire our dedication and taste forever more. But under Microsoft's new rules, we are no longer building a collection of games - we are building a collection of loans that may be recalled from us at any time, leaving us with nothing but distant memories. And that loss will be simple, instant and complete.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ts-us-to-smile

The AAA model for games has to change. The publishers are going to be in for a rude awakening if they think abolishing used games will make a big difference to their bottom line.

No, i mean like form groups prior to joining games and not being forced to use voice chat with everyone else. PSN was free yes but their update service was the slowest shit ever. I never tried PS+ since nothing it offered appealed to me and still it does not.
You're missing out. The instant game collection is worth the cost alone.

My Playstation Plus account cost me ?19.99 ($30usd~ish) for a year, which is less than it costs to buy a single game at retail. So far, through the instant game collection, I've played;

Sleeping Dogs, Vanquish, Limbo, The Cave, Okami HD, Mortal Kombat, Infamous 2, Motorstorm Apocalypse, Little Big Planet 2, Catherine, and Hitman Absolution.

Kingdoms of Amalur, the Ico and Shadow of the Colossus HD colleciton, Demon's Souls, and Rayman Origins were added for this month, which is a pretty damn good set of games.

As far as I'm concerned, my PS Plus account has paid for itself ten times over, and I've only had it for a few months. I really hope they keep the service around for the PS4.

RE: Groups and voice chat and shit. I'd be really surprised if Sony doesn't implement that stuff into the PS4's OS. I get the feeling they'll bundle it in with Plus, though. I'd be fine with paying for that as long as they keep the instant game collection around.

---

For me, the biggest issue with this DRM is that I won't be able to rent games any more.

At the moment, I rent a bunch of games that I would never buy. If I like a game, I'll buy it, and I'll probably end up buying its sequels, too. If I don't, I'll send it back and I won't feel ripped off.

If I can't do this next-gen, then I simply won't bother with consoles. I'll stick to the PC instead. At least with PCs, I can simply download a game and decide whether I want to buy it or not, or I can choose to wait until the price drops to an acceptable amount in a Steam/whatever sale. It's really hard to feel ripped off.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Another thing that's been glossed over a bit: If you're not playing on your home console you have a 1 hour DRM check. One hour.
 

Antarius

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,828
15
Yes, you are in the minority... My PC did not need to connect to the Internet once a day in order for me to enjoy civ 5, while also still being able to play EQ for 6 years and WoW for 8, maybe yours did. I absolutely hate the always connected requirements of diablo 3 and sc2.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
Why do publishers feel they are entitled to a cut of used game sales? If I buy a car and resell the vehicle, does the manufacturer of that vehicle get a cut of that sale? Is their any other industry that's allowed to do that?
 

Coral_sl

shitlord
54
0
Why do publishers feel they are entitled to a cut of used game sales? If I buy a car and resell the vehicle, does the manufacturer of that vehicle get a cut of that sale? Is their any other industry that's allowed to do that?
Your car depreciates. When you re-sell it, it is a worse product than buying a new car (generally speaking). Digital media such as video games don't depreciate.

In addition, many games have an online support component, even if there is no subscription or ongoing spend. So, you're playing your used copy of Call of Duty, and they are spending money keeping up servers for you to play online, while they get nothing for it. Your used car doesn't cost Ford anything.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
An argument could be that a game does depreciate, the technology and methods used to create the game date every second after the game is released.


And Steam does not have to be online all the time. I've used it in offline mode for quiet a while.

I've never lent a game and don't really buy used games and these decisions have pissed me off. Yes I am emotional about it. It makes me fucken angry. I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on and supported Microsoft and Sony since I was 8 years old. So fuck anyone that thinks I'm stupid for being angry about it. Stop trying to be THAT guy that talks down to people because you couldn't give a shit. ANYONE who isn't feeling something about this good or bad I don't consider a gamer and to be honest couldn't give a fuck what they think on the subject.(unless you are strictly a PC gamer) I even give a fuck what Sean thinks because at least he cares enough to give a thought out response even if I don't agree with it. He's cares about games and so do I.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
Why do publishers feel they are entitled to a cut of used game sales? If I buy a car and resell the vehicle, does the manufacturer of that vehicle get a cut of that sale? Is their any other industry that's allowed to do that?
It's not so much they feel entitled, it's that their business model isn't otherwise sustainable, and they believe people are dumb enough to go along with it. I believe the cut of used games sales is a largely a mirage anyway; people buy them because they are cheap, do anything to make them expensive and the market just disappears. The message is people want cheap games, but the big game companies aren't interested in making them.

The ball is in Sony's court. All they have to do is keep the status quo on used games on the Playstation 4 and they should win this round of the console war easily. However, I'm not optimistic. I suspect the big publishers will have been leaning on Sony to do something similar to Microsoft.
 

Coral_sl

shitlord
54
0
A game does depreciate, the technology and methods used to create the game date every second after they are released.
Not in the same sense. There is no reason to buy a new copy of a video game when the used copy is identical, and the retailer is pushing the used copy because it profits them instead of the developer.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
If you had of made that argument a few years ago I'd agree but with day one DLC for new games they aren't the same product any more. You receive less when buying second hand. Also have to factor in time has aged the game. Although the product may be the same it has still dated 2weeks or a year. If there was a 20010 model car that has done 0km's and never been touched it would still be sold for less as it's a dated object.
 

Coral_sl

shitlord
54
0
If you had of made that argument a few years ago I'd agree but with day one DLC for new games they aren't the same product any more. You receive less when buying second hand.
The argument I made is why Day 1 DLC and online passes came into existence - to give customers an incentive to buy new.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Isn't that agreeing that with most games today having DLC that games are of less value when second hand there fore depreciate in value?
 

Coral_sl

shitlord
54
0
Isn't that agreeing that with most games today having DLC that games are of less value when second hand therefore depreciate in value?
Sort of? Most gamers despise and want developers to remove Day1 free included DLC and online passes, so... and some games have neither.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
I'd much rather have day one DLC and keep the option to have used game sales then always online requirements. Because we all know that even if there is always online requirements there will STILL be day one DLC.