The Elder Scrolls Online

Barab

Barab

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Ukerric_sl said:
PvP appears to be a straight copy of GW2, only with a single map instead of splitting it in 4.

The rest... all those moderns western RPG look the same to me these days...
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More like a straight copy from DAOC New Frontiers. The character advancement skill trees and morphs from class-any armor you want to wear - any weapons you want to wield -plus guild, race, and rvr skill trees and morphs separate it from many of the other cookie cutter mmorpgs. From what I've heard / scene the character building seems limitless and will probably be this games strength. Heard several comments how play in rvr felt like Mount and Blade plus Daoc.

The major bitching will be from Elder Scroll fans feeling the game isn't Elder Scroll enough on one extreme to the theme park grind WoW player base thinking its not carrot on a stick enough.
 
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Barab_sl said:
More like a straight copy from DAOC New Frontiers. The character advancement skill trees and morphs from class-any armor you want to wear - any weapons you want to wield -plus guild, race, and rvr skill trees and morphs separate it from many of the other cookie cutter mmorpgs. From what I've heard / scene the character building seems limitless and will probably be this games strength. Heard several comments how play in rvr felt like Mount and Blade plus Daoc.

The major bitching will be from Elder Scroll fans feeling the game isn't Elder Scroll enough on one extreme to the theme park grind WoW player base thinking its not carrot on a stick enough.
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Only way it's similar to m&b is if it has the same style mounted combat. Which is probably impossible. You can't just throw mounted combat in a game and make these loose comparisons to M&B!!! (I'm still burned over Skyrims' worthless mounted combat).
 
Utnayan

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Dahkoht_sl said:
WTF , that client list is heavily loaded with mmo companies.
t
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Yes, it is. It's fairly disgusting. They have two ways of going about business. On SA, they get a poster to create a huge thread about a game, complete with all details and pictures, generate discussion, links, all info, etc. I really don't mind those because it usually has a lot of good information about an upcoming title.

The bad part are the "campaigners". The hired folks to shout down negativity and rile everyone up. Their main goal is to distract, embarrass, call someone a troll, but usually everything they post about is 10,000 foot high level fluff that usually points to something other than game play. Like pointing out a previous game someone was in charge of and saying it is going to be right up their alley. Talking about features like they haven't been done about 50 times before. A lot of the good games will stand out because they generate their own hype and do not need a company such as this. TESO and their third party grass roots team is in full swing at the moment. And unfortunately, that company has a bullseye target for this forum right now.

It was even worse when it was FOH. But as this forum gains popularity, it will get worse. And real discussion will never be had. Throw in a convenient "I need to hide behind an NDA", which only exists to create a cloud cover to sell boxes when they know their product is shit and their main goal is to recoup box sales, and you have this game.

Amazon review sections are most notable for this right now. For instance, Disney Infinity. Bad reviews are shouted down in the comments section usually by the same people labled as having received the product for free (You have to look really hard at the fine print next to their handle) and are usually soccer moms working from home.
 
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bayr_sl

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ili_sl said:
After looking at that Chinese site ESO looks like Guild Wars 2.
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It looks like Dragon Age Online or something to me.

Tobe honest it doesn't look bad, it just doesn't look anything like TES whatsoever, and I feel like calling it TESO at this point is doing more harm than good. If that was an upcoming MMO on a unique IP I would probably have way more interest than I do now
 
Z

ZProtoss

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Utnayan_sl said:
Yes, it is. It's fairly disgusting. They have two ways of going about business. On SA, they get a poster to create a huge thread about a game, complete with all details and pictures, generate discussion, links, all info, etc. I really don't mind those because it usually has a lot of good information about an upcoming title.

The bad part are the "campaigners". The hired folks to shout down negativity and rile everyone up. Their main goal is to distract, embarrass, call someone a troll, but usually everything they post about is 10,000 foot high level fluff that usually points to something other than game play. Like pointing out a previous game someone was in charge of and saying it is going to be right up their alley. Talking about features like they haven't been done about 50 times before. A lot of the good games will stand out because they generate their own hype and do not need a company such as this. TESO and their third party grass roots team is in full swing at the moment. And unfortunately, that company has a bullseye target for this forum right now.

It was even worse when it was FOH. But as this forum gains popularity, it will get worse. And real discussion will never be had. Throw in a convenient "I need to hide behind an NDA", which only exists to create a cloud cover to sell boxes when they know their product is shit and their main goal is to recoup box sales, and you have this game.

Amazon review sections are most notable for this right now. For instance, Disney Infinity. Bad reviews are shouted down in the comments section usually by the same people labled as having received the product for free (You have to look really hard at the fine print next to their handle) and are usually soccer moms working from home.
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It goes beyond this too. A big deal for these people is to get into moderator positions on larger websites. If you step into the wrong thread on a place like NeoGAF and call out obvious shill posts, you'll actually just get straight up banned by certain mods. Particularly apparent if you go to any Microsoft oriented thread (Xbox ONE related or game related). Probably one of the only places on the internet where games like Killer Instinct, an awful game that got booed to shit at Evo (ie: where actual fighting game fans are) ends up getting praised in a campaign-like format by a variety of different posters. I'm guessing similar happens with Reddit and it's mods as well.

The end game for these people is to actually have substantive moderation powers over hotbeds of discussion. And guess what? Accounts that have mod powers end up becoming de facto assets of the company. Personas to be swapped from employee to employee as people leave and go. Things protected by *real* trade secret NDAs. As in, if someone who left the company were to give a list of forum mod accounts across the internet? They'd be sued into the ground and probably lose everything they have.

edit:

Now that I think about it. I wonder if you could independently contact a company like Ayzenberg if you had moderator status on one of the larger, more desirable forums. Offer to sign an affidavit stating that you've told no one else of your intentions to sell, and then sign a binding NDA about your sale to them. Letting one of their paid staff take over your persona (and moderating powers) and use it to more harshly enforce a message for their clients.
 
ronne

ronne

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Read any of the larger subreddits (news ones are the worst offenders) to get an idea of how ridiculous hired mods can be. I have to imagine Reddit itself is going to have to take action sooner or later, because it's getting out of control and most (if not all) of the largest/frontpage subreddits are completely astroturfed.
 
D

Dahkoht_sl

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Might actually explain what I've wondered about Reddit threads over the past year or so.

While its always been some sort of cesspool , it seemed there is a definite trend going from fans and haters arguing about a game , to instead now full on cock sucking of a developers and games and dissenting opinions piled on by fans and mods alike.

The EQN reddit section seems to be a textbook case of only positive allowed.

And I see SOE is a client of the shill marketing firm of course.
 
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ZProtoss_sl said:
It goes beyond this too. A big deal for these people is to get into moderator positions on larger websites. If you step into the wrong thread on a place like NeoGAF and call out obvious shill posts, you'll actually just get straight up banned by certain mods. Particularly apparent if you go to any Microsoft oriented thread (Xbox ONE related or game related). Probably one of the only places on the internet where games like Killer Instinct, an awful game that got booed to shit at Evo (ie: where actual fighting game fans are) ends up getting praised in a campaign-like format by a variety of different posters. I'm guessing similar happens with Reddit and it's mods as well.

The end game for these people is to actually have substantive moderation powers over hotbeds of discussion. And guess what? Accounts that have mod powers end up becoming de facto assets of the company. Personas to be swapped from employee to employee as people leave and go. Things protected by *real* trade secret NDAs. As in, if someone who left the company were to give a list of forum mod accounts across the internet? They'd be sued into the ground and probably lose everything they have.

edit:

Now that I think about it. I wonder if you could independently contact a company like Ayzenberg if you had moderator status on one of the larger, more desirable forums. Offer to sign an affidavit stating that you've told no one else of your intentions to sell, and then sign a binding NDA about your sale to them. Letting one of their paid staff take over your persona (and moderating powers) and use it to more harshly enforce a message for their clients.
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I'll take this moment to inform any game development companies that my shilling services are for hire.
 
Tuco

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Dahkoht_sl said:
The EQN reddit section seems to be a textbook case of only positive allowed.
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I don't view the EQN subreddit but when it was announced we all piled in and made negative posts about it. The only people who got banned or had their shit removed were people who broke the very reasonable rules of not having personal attacks against others.

Until someone shows me proof that someone made a reasonable but negative post and was punished for that post or it was deleted I have to call shenanigans on whatever conspiracy they're trying to promote. It happens for sure, I've seen it a lot myself but people here are waaay too quick to see a group of fanboys and assume they're paid shills.

The fact is is that pre-release communities naturally attract people who are excited about the game. Existing MMO communities like this one attract people who have played MMOs before and may not necessarily be excited about a game but still want to follow it and post in its thread. So there's a lot of selection bias in communities oriented toward a specific unreleased game.
 
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ZProtoss

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I think in the end, the only course places can take (and it won't be foolproof but it'll make things harder) is to do full background checks on potential mods. They need to go out of their way and get solid proof that the person who they're bringing on as a mod has a job that would preclude them from working with one of major astroturf companies. Not just superficial checks either, but deep checks all the way into someone's tax return. I don't think there's any other way to stop astroturfing mods beyond those sorts of measures.
 
Tuco

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ZProtoss_sl said:
I think in the end, the only course places can take (and it won't be foolproof but it'll make things harder) is to do full background checks on potential mods. They need to go out of their way and get solid proof that the person who they're bringing on as a mod has a job that would preclude them from working with one of major astroturf companies. Not just superficial checks either, but deep checks all the way into someone's tax return. I don't think there's any other way to stop astroturfing mods beyond those sorts of measures.
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Nah, it's much more effective for administrators to monitor the moderators and act when they start shilling rather than trying to prevent it before it happens.

The problem is that administrators generally prefer communities to be positive, because that helps attract developer involvement and more people. Some guy talking shit constantly about a game in a community about that game has no real value added to that community.
 
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ZProtoss

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Tuco_sl said:
Nah, it's much more effective for administrators to monitor the moderators and act when they start shilling rather than trying to prevent it before it happens.

The problem is that administrators generally prefer communities to be positive, because that helps attract developer involvement and more people. Some guy talking shit constantly about a game in a community about that game has no real value added to that community.
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"Developer involvement" is not a positive thing. Anyone who thinks that is a deluded fool. Because the reality is that the developers are rarely going to listen to players on anything except the most obvious "everyone agrees" issues. And guess what? They don't have to interact with the community personally to figure out what those issues are. Developer involvement just means that all real conversation stops, and rampant sucking up begins. Nothing more. Because the average person is too afraid to call shitty developers out when they fuck up.
 
Utnayan

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ZProtoss_sl said:
"Developer involvement" is not a positive thing. Anyone who thinks that is a deluded fool. Because the reality is that the developers are rarely going to listen to players on anything except the most obvious "everyone agrees" issues. And guess what? They don't have to interact with the community personally to figure out what those issues are. Developer involvement just means that all real conversation stops, and rampant sucking up begins. Nothing more. Because the average person is too afraid to call shitty developers out when they fuck up.
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^^ Bingo.

But while you are right, it doesn't matter. Admins won't care because it drives web hits.

The tangled web of the web, where everything, pretty much, has to be shady as shit for some reason instead of people being held accountable for making shitty product.
 
Tuco

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ZProtoss_sl said:
"Developer involvement" is not a positive thing.
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It is for profitability of the website.

For community building? well it depends on which developers and which games. There would be nothing gained by TESO devs coming in here and engaging with us because they aren't able or willing to make the changes necessary to appease us. But EQN devs? Yeah, it'd be mutually beneficial if they came here to do more than just shill their game. Or Albion Online? the camelot remake?.

Any the average person here is not afraid to call people out on their shit. In fact it's the easiest card to play here.
 
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Dahkoht_sl

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I do appreciate SOEs developer interaction with the polls and so on though.
They have introduced new math to me I didn't know existed.

A poll on ninjas and guns where 49.5 picked no/never , but the other three options which were not the same at all and split between them , got added together by SOE to result in their logic to mean guns and ninjas for everyone because the majority want them.

I mean, why wouldn't you want more of that kind of direct dev interaction ?
 
Utnayan

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I mean, why wouldn't you want more of that kind of direct dev interaction ?
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Because of the past here. A lot of spin, conjecture, and fanboi's and the result of the thread turns into a glorified advertisement for the game, or how great of a developer the person posting in. I would rather see them not here because they never add anything to discussion. It would be interesting to see a liason between a forum and a game company that tells it like it is though. But those people are always shunned by the viral marketers and fanboys.
 
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I was given a beta invite to WoW by Tigole because of my intense hatred for instancing at the time.

Now, you can take that one of two ways. He was "buying" me off or he was trying to help change a person's mind without broadcasting NDA breaking material.

I don't know that dev involvement is a good thing.
 
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Felmega_sl

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My opinion: Dev involvement with the community is always good. At the least, It shows that the devs care about the opinions of the players. What many people fail to realize is that the same heated conversations that take place on boards like this one, take place among the devs during development. I see no disadvantage with querying the player base over design factors.

As to paid shills who try and boost games, I dont really have a problem with it. It's no more than an advertisement,. Anyone playing MMO's in this day and age, who is frequenting message boards, should know to try a game themselves before going all in. Fanboys have been derided for at least a decade. I dont shills as any kind of threat to message board integrity. That said, if a shill is confirmed, his thoughts and opinions for the game he is shilling for are void.
 
Utnayan

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Felmega_sl said:
My opinion: Dev involvement with the community is always good. At the least, It shows that the devs care about the opinions of the players.
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I'll stop you right here. Developers don't give a shit about your opinion.

None.

About 75% of the time developers aren't doing anything but pushing a creative directors agenda anyway. And if they aren't doing that, they are trying to make the next big splash. Of which case they are reading your ideas to see which ones they may incorporate, but keeping their name far away from posting so they can pass those ideas off as their own.

As to paid shills who try and boost games, I dont really have a problem with it. It's no more than an advertisement
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Well, the law has a problem with it. It's also why Amazon tags those reviewers so people can decide for themselves if they are genuine. It's one thing to be genuinely excited about a game, it's another to be reading 5 product prescripts, which sites to go to to register an account, and try to deceive the general public. My guess is you are confusing known paid shills and advertising to what happens here, people disguising themselves as regular gamers with an agenda for a specific product to mislead the target market of said product into thinking it is better than it really is.
 
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