The Elder Scrolls Online

Quaid_sl said:

PVP just can't be awesome in a game designed around PVE, IMO

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From my perspective, that's exactly what makes pvp awesome. PvE becomes what is worth fighting for. Want to exp? Better defend yourself or find a less obvious place to exp. Want to gear up your character? Better defend yourself... etc.

The ironic thing, I suppose, is that coming from a 'hardcore' pvp server in EQ where you could corpse camp and lost exp and shit like that, I found the 'pvp' in more modern games obnoxious because you were ALWAYS getting into fights. There was no real danger or penalty to lose, so the system is designed to just be fight after fight after fight. The potential for a fight is usually what makes pvp more interesting than just zerging each other in an instanced battleground or at the gates of a city.

When pvp is designed around pve, though, and has ramifications, you don't just spastically attack everyone you see. Diplomacy and player interaction and player-created rules and all sorts of things like that come into play, making the social environment far richer and the pvp more meaningful, because if you agree to leave someone alone and then sneak up and kill them, it matters and there will be more retribution that simply bind-rushing each other because there's no penalty to die and no reason the area you're fighting is even important to control.

I guess this is why I love fantasy, mmorpg, pve based pvp and could never really get into first-person shooters.

Mr Creed_sl said:

Then they came with the honor system and BGs and season points and arenas and whateverthefuck after I left. Imo all of that made pvp worse not better.

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It was ironic, I suppose, that when WoW launched their pvp systems was the first time I'd ever regretted rolling a character on a pvp server, and everyone I knew that loved pvp (as we knew it) started getting bored and leaving the game.

Tuco_sl said:

There's basically three types of PVP, and generally someone who likes PVP likes one of these categories.
1. Random PVP: the shit you get where you're contending over resources with a random person in some area. Including when a high level player comes in and griefs for fun.
2. Battleground PVP: Even teams, levels, ratings, gear, everything.
3. Warfare: Factions (player made or set in game) fighting a war on many different levels. Includes fighting over small resources, sieges, resource/area control etc.

WoW at launch had #1 and it was okay. It was virtually impossible to prevent an enemy guild or the opposite faction from being able to level, farm or enter instances. Sure you could invade a city and kill a leader and disrupt a bunch of people (PRX world first factional leader kill!) but it's easy for an enemy to simply move to another area to get shit done. Pyros probably leveled on some weak ass server but on a lot of servers the first few months (and beta) had some pretty good fights and small contention of resources.

#3 is the only PVP I really care about and it's really not that hard to implement. Put a scarce resource in the world that can be defended and let the players fight over it. Implementing player-built or defended cities and sieges is harder but makes the game more deep. Factional PVP gives a reason to level and get loot beyond your own satisfaction with your progress because it's inherently competitive. You make enemies, you fight your enemies and you either claim victory or regroup.

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80% of #3 and 20% of #1 is the best. Anytime anything is instanced (for the most part) ruins PVP, especially if that instance is population capped.

I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here but I think competitive wise instanced PvP like battlegrounds / arenas isn't that bad. Of course fun factor relies a lot on balance / goals / competition and ganking / corpsecamp is always kind of fun but fighting equally geared / prepared people is more challenging, I'd say.

Bondurant_sl said:

I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here but I think competitive wise instanced PvP like battlegrounds / arenas isn't that bad. Of course fun factor relies a lot on balance / goals / competition and ganking / corpsecamp is always kind of fun but fighting equally geared / prepared people is more challenging, I'd say.

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You are absolutely right, and there are many games that are ideal for it or even made for just that. In MMOs its usually a tacked-on mediocre or worse addition, even if they held PvP up as one of their main goals (WAR, GW2). I prefer #3 being in the background without getting too involved and otherwise #1. So basically EVE but I prefer fantasy to sci-fi. Screw #2 if i want that I can play SC2, MWO(heh) or LoL (or hundred other games but those are what I'd play for "fair" pvp).

Anyone want my key? I won't be trying it this weekend.

Mr Creed_sl said:

You are absolutely right, and there are many games that are ideal for it or even made for just that. In MMOs its usually a tacked-on mediocre or worse addition, even if they held PvP up as one of their main goals (WAR, GW2). I prefer #3 being in the background without getting too involved and otherwise #1. So basically EVE but I prefer fantasy to sci-fi. Screw #2 if i want that I can play SC2, MWO(heh) or LoL (or hundred other games but those are what I'd play for "fair" pvp).

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While I enjoyed both BGs (guilds wars / trash talk / drama during vanilla) and arenas (BC seasons) I was fully aware about the issues : BGs like WSG relied heavily on burst squads for example, and arenas where poorly implemented because Blizzard tried to balance it for both PvE / PvP (hence unkillable druids / warlocks at some point, or herpderp icelance mages). Was it balanced ? Hell no. Was it fun and challenging ? I think at some point it was, at least for some people. I do understand the love with DAoC's RvR but I think nowadays this kind of PvP relies too much on zergling / blobbing mostly because when you die you lose nothing gear / xp / loot / time wise. I played GW2 EU T1 WvW when most guilds called themselves "DAoC elite guilds" and most of the time they were outplayed by karmatrains because you couldn't compete with numbers (it's a general point of view, some groups still managed to take down larger groups).

I like fun and competitive / challenging PvP and when some feature is really fun and challenging to me (PvP corpse / money loot or XP loss) some people would find it atrociously boring / harsh. On the other hand massive PvP ? la DAoC / GW2 / ESO bores me to death but some people find it balls fun. I'd think there might a middle ground there, but we've yet to see it, mostly because as Utnayan (I know, Satan) said, we're in a market where the same people are doing the same games for a decade now. Jacobs and Firor "did" DAoC ? Well Jacobs fucked up Warhammer on a stellar level and Firor is living on its resume, forcing DAoC-like PvP on an anonymous / instanced / megaserver level while milking franchises. I won't even talk about Vogel because of SWG's CU PR drama, and Amantangelo did SWTOR's Ilum, which was a cosmic clusterfuck of amateur game design decisions. It's Hollywood all over again, where a caste of self-glorified hacks rig the market because powerselling badly designed franchises is more profitable than creating nice products.

an accordion_sl said:

Anyone want my key? I won't be trying it this weekend.

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Won't work unless you can let them use the email you registered it with , they tied the keys to the email addresses.

My favourite games to PvP in were mostly PvE games, fighting other players over PvE resources. Fighting in dungeons in Vanguard, fighting over raid bosses in EQ.

Most fun PVP I ever had was unlocking pre 9 Jedi in SWG with saber tef, Perma Death even post 9 with overt all the time was pimp shit as whole groups would come and try to kill your ass. Edge of my seat palm shaking shit..

Bondurant_sl said:

I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here but I think competitive wise instanced PvP like battlegrounds / arenas isn't that bad. Of course fun factor relies a lot on balance / goals / competition and ganking / corpsecamp is always kind of fun but fighting equally geared / prepared people is more challenging, I'd say.

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Instanced PvP is fun, but way overdone. Small group pvp in an open world is better. But not as easy to successfully implement.

Quaid_sl said:

PVP just can't be awesome in a game designed around PVE, IMO

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pvp in eq2 was damn good when it launched, i had the best pvp of my gaming life.. The did put in quite a bit of effort with the pvp-versions of items but it really was a pvE game no ?

shabushabu_sl said:

pvp in eq2 was damn good when it launched, i had the best pvp of my gaming life.. The did put in quite a bit of effort with the pvp-versions of items but it really was a pvE game no ?

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MASTER rank!

Flake_sl said:

MASTER rank!

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It was the "everything was contested" nature of it that just made it fun.. it was like an arms race at launch, if one side was more in force, you lose control of dungeons... and thus your gear sucks and thus you get stomped in pvp... literally had to call other guilds just to level near each other etc... was fun as hell.

Also, eq2 pvp was group based, tanks actually taunted, we would taunt healers off their targets in opposing grp and take those targets down.. and contested pvp raids... best time ever in pvp.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Won't work unless you can let them use the email you registered it with , they tied the keys to the email addresses.

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This wasn't the case for me, I registered a new account with a key sent to another email address, might be different with europeans?

60$ on all platforms, 15$/month

Elder Scrolls Online invites sent for beta game - Technology Science - CBC News

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. God I hope they lose their shirts on this. I will actually be personally offended by gamers if this moves enough boxes to break even.

shabushabu_sl said:

Also, eq2 pvp was group based, tanks actually taunted, we would taunt healers off their targets in opposing grp and take those targets down.. and contested pvp raids... best time ever in pvp.

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I agree but as time goes we tend to forget the things that were absolutely fucked about EQ2 PvP as well, like chasing people around clouds/spires/zonelines, how some classes were ridiculously OP and others compared to others (I played a bruiser so no sour grapes here), evac in pvp..