One being a system hog requiring 2GB+ of system memory and 1GB of video memory vs a sysem that requires half of that with the same performance/eyecandy.
It's comparing IE6 to Chrome 23. They both show webpages, right?
The Elder Scrolls Online
- Thread starter Anomander Rake
- Start date
It's comparing IE6 to Chrome 23. They both show webpages, right?
I don't see the point in blaming an engine for the way a game turns out, that's all I'm saying.
That's what's happening here, right? We're talking about how a game engine will make or break a game?
That's what's happening here, right? We're talking about how a game engine will make or break a game?
Denaut
Trump's Staff
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Yay, engine discussion!
Generally MMO engines aren't one engine, but essentially 3; Client, Server, and Database (simplifying here). Each piece is as critical as the other. Being complex is generally what causes them to have many more problems than most games.
If you are making, say, an FPS you really only have to worry about the client (and the client's network code). You have one chance to choose incorrectly, and it is usually pretty apparent at an early stage. Just an example as there are many FPS engines out there and it is pretty hard to go wrong here.
For an MMO, each piece handles a separate part of the major responsibility of running the game, with each having completely different requirements. They then have to communicate with each other, sometimes with great latency.
The client and database are generally the easiest to figure out. There are plenty of good clients around with good tools. Unreal for example will give you a renderer, level editor, asset browser, animation controller, particle editor and so on. Databases are also well tested tech with various pros and cons that are fairly well known, giving you a good shot at choosing the correct solution.
Where you usually run into problems though is the "Server" (I use the term loosely here). There is absolutely no established "engine" for an MMO game server in the same way you have Unreal. There are plenty of technologies that CAN run a server, but nothing that works fantastically out of the box. Since your game runs here, most of your game code lives in the space, and that game code needs to communicate constantly with itself, the client, and the database. All that communication makes things heinously complex. It is so complex that to this date there is no good "generic solution" because inevitably there critical functionality missing that you need for your new game.
What I am saying is, for most MMOs there is no "engine" to criticize, only the game itself and the people that built it.
Generally MMO engines aren't one engine, but essentially 3; Client, Server, and Database (simplifying here). Each piece is as critical as the other. Being complex is generally what causes them to have many more problems than most games.
If you are making, say, an FPS you really only have to worry about the client (and the client's network code). You have one chance to choose incorrectly, and it is usually pretty apparent at an early stage. Just an example as there are many FPS engines out there and it is pretty hard to go wrong here.
For an MMO, each piece handles a separate part of the major responsibility of running the game, with each having completely different requirements. They then have to communicate with each other, sometimes with great latency.
The client and database are generally the easiest to figure out. There are plenty of good clients around with good tools. Unreal for example will give you a renderer, level editor, asset browser, animation controller, particle editor and so on. Databases are also well tested tech with various pros and cons that are fairly well known, giving you a good shot at choosing the correct solution.
Where you usually run into problems though is the "Server" (I use the term loosely here). There is absolutely no established "engine" for an MMO game server in the same way you have Unreal. There are plenty of technologies that CAN run a server, but nothing that works fantastically out of the box. Since your game runs here, most of your game code lives in the space, and that game code needs to communicate constantly with itself, the client, and the database. All that communication makes things heinously complex. It is so complex that to this date there is no good "generic solution" because inevitably there critical functionality missing that you need for your new game.
What I am saying is, for most MMOs there is no "engine" to criticize, only the game itself and the people that built it.
Off the shelf engines are terrible. I'm admittedly out of the loop but I think this is still the case. In the old days you knew the Quake engine would make you a good fps because it was built to make a fps. Modern middleware was made to create... the demos... that they show to sell the engine to suits. Which are entirely unrelated to how any interesting game is going to run.
What I mean by "interesting" is a game that doesn't just have a big list of stuff to load once upfront at some sort of loading screen, because that's about all they are made to do. If you build a "level" and know every entity in it, and there are no surprises, then a prebuilt engine is right for your game.
MMO games almost fit, but then you have the characters to handle. Hard mode is if you have player built objects. Crazy mode is like dwarf fort where people can dig and build arbitrarily. No off the shelf engine that I know of would do anything besides get in your way for anything beyond the carefully crafted hallways of the current crop.
What I mean by "interesting" is a game that doesn't just have a big list of stuff to load once upfront at some sort of loading screen, because that's about all they are made to do. If you build a "level" and know every entity in it, and there are no surprises, then a prebuilt engine is right for your game.
MMO games almost fit, but then you have the characters to handle. Hard mode is if you have player built objects. Crazy mode is like dwarf fort where people can dig and build arbitrarily. No off the shelf engine that I know of would do anything besides get in your way for anything beyond the carefully crafted hallways of the current crop.
spronk
FPS noob
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tera and rift use unreal engine, they are both great imo and never make you stare at your screen going "wtf is going on..." like swtor did, every day. For the Hero engine to be redeemed Simultronics needs a stellar MMO to come out using it, and I doubt thats happening anytime soon.
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There was definite rendering problems with SWTOR, one guy who worked there and was a lead artist spoke about the problems on another forum. They had to reduce the speed of all their mounts and such because of the rendering issues. Basically it took a couple of seconds to render shit around you if you went too fast. This is why we had slow ass mounts in SWTOR.
But is this a "hero engine" problem or a "hero engine" modification problem?
But is this a "hero engine" problem or a "hero engine" modification problem?
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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It was the latter according to what could possibly be the same person you mentioned. We played this game together in BKB on POT5 about 4 months ago.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Yes, it does, and it can.
EverQuest continued to suffer through Z-Axis glitches throughout it's lifespan and even today because the game was built on an engine designed for a tank simulator. If you ever played that game and going to Unrest, you would know that mobs would warp through floors because they couldn't adjust aggro for the Z-Axis as a result. Causing trains and hilarity. Granted, it was funny when this happened (Or on Dain pulls) but none the less was a broken design mechanism/play style that originated from the flawed portion of this engine.
Blizzard created their own from the ground up with the reasons being ongoing modification and future planning. It was fairly simple for them to implement cross server functionality, instancing, phasing, Dungeon Finder, etc - which were fresh features in an MMORPG, due to the engine concepts. This particular engine in question hampers a lot of what SWTOR is able to do. You could call it a combination of Bioware "Engineering" in which they really had no clue what they were doing (And it shows) and a limitation of the version of any particular revision of Hero. Which includes why certain accessibility features were not in SWTOR at launch, and why many still aren't today even though I am sure they would love to implement them to catch up to the Jonses.
At any rate, there are many inherent flaws and advantages based on which engine they will be using, while some can be engineered around, and some cannot, and all have different flavors. So yes, if done/chosen incorrectly, it can make or break a game.
Utnayan
F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Caeden
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry. At least for that time I played, it was better than the prequel shit.Everyone still playing will get to see the other half for only $19.99 in March!
Imo, the biggest contributor to WoW's success was how well the game ran on day one. Even on shitty machines the game ran smooth and your character felt responsive. That was basically the first thing that all my friends said about it (you dont have to fight with the game to make your character do what you want it to do).
I agree, the #1 reason WoW is such a success, and why I always end up coming back is because the game is aging well, and plays as smooth as ever. Nothing comes close.
RIFT used a modified version of something called Gamebryo. TERA definitely used the Unreal Engine, which explains why it feels like an mmo stuffed into a FPS cockhole. I tried TERA for about 10 minutes and it just seemed odd and disconnected. RIFT was a good game in it's own right, and the tech they dev'd to allow for dynamic content was fairly ground breaking.
Still waiting on my T.E.S.O beta invite. Apparently, I'm not cool enough.
Edit: ixian got to it first.
DC Universe Online and APB used it. Also, probably a dozen Asian MMOGs including Lineage 2 and Ragnarok 2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_Engine_games