The Elder Scrolls Online

AlekseiFL_sl

shitlord
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It's true that Garriott hasn't done anything recently to justify his apparent belief that he is one of the "great designers". But it is also true that the mmo industry has a serious lack of them. The massive amount of mmo cow dung produced in the last few years is ample proof of that.

Bingo sir we have winner.
Also if you read the entire pc gamer story, you can see his point back when he started you had to go it all, so even if he admits some parts he was average at etc or not great but it made him better as designer cause he had to understand it all.
 

Utnayan

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I'll comment more about Garriott's interview later, but for now I have a simple message...

Go Fuck Yourself.
This sentiment is being echo'd throughout industry developers trying to do new things but held back by upper office idiots and executive producers (incestual in the MMORPG genre) that should be long fucking gone by now. And their scapegoats with them.
 

AlekseiFL_sl

shitlord
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This sentiment is being echo'd throughout industry developers trying to do new things but held back by upper office idiots and executive producers (incestual in the MMORPG genre) that should be long fucking gone by now. And their scapegoats with them.
See Polesmoker at SoE Director of everquest franchise hahahhahahhaha, Exec Pro of Nexteq3 lol.

Sorry meant to say smokejumper, always get his name mixed up due to his true skills.
 

Denaut

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At the sandbox kicking up dirt?
biggrin.png


Was busy being not lazy
 

Denaut

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I was all ready to agree with Garriott here, because I too think the state of the design discipline in the industry is woefully sad, unfortunately all I got were the completely misguided thoughts of a pompous egoist.

It is TRUE that the industry struggles with designers, but it isn't because they are inherently dumb, skill-less, lazy, and incompetent. It is becausedesign is not respected as a skill. Because design is not respected as a something that takes time and effort to acquire on par with art or programming, the discipline ends up in a self reinforcing cycle of fail.

This complete lack of respect leads to behaviors that only support the prevailing opinion that designers are "useless". Low pay, lack of proper training, no credence given to arguments made from logic or knowledge, promotions based on nepotism instead of ability, and so on.

Agooddesigner is hardworking, technically proficient, and disciplined. Abaddesigner is all of the things he said, as is a bad programmer or a bad artist. People who are bad at their job suck? Wow, that is a shock. Maybe your inability to recognize and hire good designers is the problem? No, that couldn't be it, you are Lord British, emperor of awesome.
 

Denaut

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This sentiment is being echo'd throughout industry developers trying to do new things but held back by upper office idiots and executive producers (incestual in the MMORPG genre) that should be long fucking gone by now. And their scapegoats with them.
He is a useless ass. How about being positive? How about using your podium toimprovethe design discipline? How about instead of disparaging would be designers, and PLENTY of us could have been programmers by the way, you encourage them to learn and practice?

"And every designer that I work with-all throughout life-I think, frankly, is lazy," said Garriot
Seriously, fuck you.

Being a designer is hard work, just as hard as being a programmer or an artist. Shit like that makes my blood boil, he basically just wrote off my entire career in a sentence. I wouldn't care so much if people didn't listen to this hack and think it was actually true.

So glad I didn't give his kickstarter any money.
 

Utnayan

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So the latest is that they are now allowing for first person perspective in trying to appease the fans of Elder Scrolls. Needless to say this will be about as fun as playing World of Warcraft in first person mode as well; all they did was increase the fucking camera zoom level and call it a day.
 

Erronius

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Garriott: 'I think most game designers really just suck'
I had mixed feelings reading that interview.

Garriot bringing in all his old reference work...Richard, we get it. You want to portray yourself as some sort of "miracle developer". And even his opinion on devs vs dev/artist/programmers, ties back to himself, who is of course a programmer. Still, if his issue is developers that suck, then get new developers. I don't care if you are pulling people from other fields or if you pull in people from outside the industry, that's what people should be doing. I understand what he is saying, because that happens in lots of industries. The "tech" people you can't live without have to remain in their department but the mediocre ones, well,"maybe they'll be better doing X". But it sounds to me more like he's trying to build a case for HIS talent since he has a game coming out, which makes me shake my head a little. Stop giving interviews where you try to establish your credibility - no one cares. Make a game that is actually awesome and then shill that to us instead.

I almost agree with him if I take "designers" and segue to "designs" (because to be fair designers might get blamed for things that they had no control over, or were forced to do) but I think he is putting too much emphasis on the story. That isn't to say that story and background isn't important, but where I think the industry fails is in regards to the most basic and fundamental design decisions. All we've seen for decades now is studios taking something else and changing a little something here, a little something there. When he says"...but why? What?s your motivation for being into it? What are the side stories?"I think he has a point, but I want to take it to the very core of MMOs as they stand today. Why have levels? Is there a better way to handle progression? Are loot tables on mobs the best way to go, along with the need to keep spitting out that kind of content? Why build games around raiding as your end game? And in regards to TESO...why have PvP at all in a game built on an IP that was basically a solo exploration and dungeon RPG? Wouldn't it have still been legit to build the game around solo and 1-5 person groups? Are zones for different levels of characters a good idea? Is that going to be ruining people's sense of immersion? (laughable or not) Why have a single shard to begin with? Who the fuck is going to give a shit about rigid factions? I mean, do you even need factions at all? Why are they bothering with voice acting and claiming that all quests will have voice acting? Why run with archetype classes when you're already going to have skills open to anyone - why not just jettison the archetypes and turn people loose? Why are they going with standard MMO instances when the IP was the polar opposite? And while I understand why they might feel a need for instances, are they going to be more like the usual linear MMO snorefest instances, or are we going to have instances that might actually be interesting and immersive, instances that we'd want to lose ourselves in for hours or even days on end? I'm guessing they wont be, but I hope I am wrong.

This complete lack of respect leads to behaviors that only support the prevailing opinion that designers are ?useless?. Low pay, lack of proper training, no credence given to arguments made from logic or knowledge, promotions based on nepotism instead of ability, and so on.
Which leads to, I imagine, the question of why go into that field in the first place? And also, how can you ever bring in fresh blood that can tie their shoelaces when what they have to look forward to is being ignored, being mistreated, and doing way too much work for not enough pay while you have the so called "superstars" going to space or driving around in lamborghinis?
 

AlekseiFL_sl

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He is a useless ass. How about being positive? How about using your podium toimprovethe design discipline? How about instead of disparaging would be designers, and PLENTY of us could have been programmers by the way, you encourage them to learn and practice?



Seriously, fuck you.

Being a designer is hard work, just as hard as being a programmer or an artist. Shit like that makes my blood boil, he basically just wrote off my entire career in a sentence. I wouldn't care so much if people didn't listen to this hack and think it was actually true.

So glad I didn't give his kickstarter any money.

What is going to be Comedy Gold after this all, even if Garriot was right or Partial right he often comes out as very arrogant so understand both sides.
Here is point back to the Comedy Gold Garriot may hit 2 million by the date for the kickstarter then he annouces he is hireing for it, and best of all Game Designers Rofl,Haha.

After Sand Blasting every game designer out their lol, give or take.
 

Denaut

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Which leads to, I imagine, the question of why go into that field in the first place? And also, how can you ever bring in fresh blood that can tie their shoelaces when what they have to look forward to is being ignored, being mistreated, and doing way too much work for not enough pay while you have the so called "superstars" going to space or driving around in lamborghinis?
In the first place? Naivete.

You are totally right, Garriott isn't helping. Him blabbing his mouth is self-defeating because that is no way to attract the best and the brightest to the industry and it is something he and everyone else would ultimately benefit from. In my experience most workers in the gaming industry aren't in it for the money. If that were the case there would be no programmers OR artists either. So it doesn't cost you all that much more monetarily to hire a smart, talented person, even at twice the cost a good designer is a bargain because they will save you an unbelievable number of hours. Really all we want is some respect for our profession and the ability to do our job well.

I would actually recommend to anyone that wants to be a designer in the industry to go to school for programming with plenty of humanities/liberal arts on the side. Then you can get work as a game-play programmer where, if you are lucky, you will work with some excellent designers and can learn a lot from them. I've known a couple of coders that have transitioned to being designers because they prefer it.

That being said I am incredibly happy at the company I work for now. I get all of the freedom and respect I could ever have hoped for and absolutely love it. I wouldn't leave for any price, money just isn't worth it.
 

Denaut

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What is going to be Comedy Gold after this all, even if Garriot was right or Partial right he often comes out as very arrogant so understand both sides.
Here is point back to the Comedy Gold Garriot may hit 2 million by the date for the kickstarter then he annouces he is hireing for it, and best of all Game Designers Rofl,Haha.

After Sand Blasting every game designer out their lol, give or take.
I don't know why any designer with a modicum of talent or self-respect would work for a guy that would so publicly bash his or her profession. He may have shot himself in the foot.
 

AlekseiFL_sl

shitlord
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I don't know why any designer with a modicum of talent or self-respect would work for a guy that would so publicly bash his or her profession. He may have shot himself in the foot.
Also while this will work for some, some devs that admire him respect him, maybe they consider him legend may have donated to his kickstarter.
Now they probally wanting to back out as well.

What mean by will work for some, alot agree with what he was saying to a degree, but if there is 1 thing know about Garriot rep thru all the years is like alot of the great ones he has a Huge Ego, alot times comes out as very arrogant.
 

Kharza-kzad_sl

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I didn't really take the article as an insult. It just seems to point out the nebulous nature of the job. It is a fair point that often the designers don't have any creative control over what they are doing. Even when I was working for RG I had like 5 or 6 managerial types I had to get a design brief through before I could even begin building / coding. That kind of process really doesn't help. By the time it gets through it really isn't your design at all.

Most designers are just implementers, roughing out areas someone else came up with, scripting stuff to happen the way someone else wants. Only systems designers get any real freedom because the creative types at the top can't be bothered with numbers, at least until they see something running.

On cross discipline, has anyone ever met a good designer that came from the art world? The only time I've seen those two disciplines mixed, the results were a pretty mess that was completely unplayable (but looked good).
 

Denaut

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I didn't really take the article as an insult. It just seems to point out the nebulous nature of the job.
I admittedly might be overreacting a little, but to me many of his statements, assuming they are in context, are blanket insults to the entire profession. I can't help but take it personally. The job is somewhat nebulous in nature, but that isn't what he talked about, he basically said that designers are lazy, stupid, and talent-less otherwise they'd be programmers or artists.

It is a fair point that often the designers don't have any creative control over what they are doing. Even when I was working for RG I had like 5 or 6 managerial types I had to get a design brief through before I could even begin building / coding. That kind of process really doesn't help. By the time it gets through it really isn't your design at all.
Very true. Software in general is known for its pointless red tape but sometimes I think game development is even worse. A lot of what you mention comes from what I talked about earlier. When design isn't respected as a knowledge profession all "opinions" are equal, even when the designer can articulate why one idea is good or bad they are often just overridden by some producer that wants to play at being a designer without the pay cut.

Most designers are just implementers, roughing out areas someone else came up with, scripting stuff to happen the way someone else wants. Only systems designers get any real freedom because the creative types at the top can't be bothered with numbers, at least until they see something running.
Which is very sad, and a totally wasted opportunity to train people. Giving someone a box, and then letting them run wild in that box implementing their OWN ideas is how people become good designers. They try and fail, they make mistakes. You have to LET them make those mistakes and then offer advice them they come to you about solving their problems. Micro-management is the enemy, always has been. It is the long view to be sure, but it pays off in spades.

On cross discipline, has anyone ever met a good designer that came from the art world? The only time I've seen those two disciplines mixed, the results were a pretty mess that was completely unplayable (but looked good).
The couple I know think very differently. While I tend to come at a game from a nuts & bolts perspective initially, they seem to come at things from an action and feeling angle. It is really fun to discuss concepts with them since their approach is so unique it really sparks my imagination.
 

Pyros

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Seems like exactly the same footage as the longer interview that was posted earlier. Maybe a few new shots but quickly moving through the video it was all stuff I'd seen. Still no gameplay footage.