It's real easy - don't buy any MMO until you get a chance to play it yourself. Other people's opinions of if they enjoy an MMO is pretty worthless - you may enjoy something completely different.
The Elder Scrolls Online
- Thread starter Anomander Rake
- Start date
Yeah. This doesn't mean shit for the average person in which the conversation is about. I don't think the average poster here really gives a shit about the profitability of the website, beyond the fact that it's hopefully covering whatever server costs it may incur. Sorry.
It's incredibly naive to think that any major design decisions would be made as a result of interaction with specific people on a forum. Regardless of how sincere the people talking to you may or may not be. Especially since in almost all recorded cases, the people who you're interacting with are rarely the people who are directly pushing and pulling the design levers. Do you really think talking with big picture/oversight/production people like Scott Hartsman have any actual effect on the game (in terms of reacting to specific posters)? Do you think that he sprints down the hall after reading a post, and directly interacts with the lead designer of system X, telling him to change course because of something he read? Fuck no. And anyone who thinks that really isn't living in reality.
Face it. What people say on forums like these on an individual level does not matter. It never *has* mattered. Developers will respond to large scale trends in opinion - trends that they can read without ever interacting with people once. Other than that, designers have their own agenda they want to pursue, and they don't really give a shit what random people think or want.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
I agree 100%. Get your very own hands on this game...hopefully beta will open up near release.
Blackwulf
N00b
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- 18
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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As long as they have an open beta for everyone for a couple weeks which allows Everyone to experience all the features before a box purchase and nothing is held back? I know I wouldn't have a problem with that. I'm guessing no one else would either. Let's see how far they go with that.
Blackwulf
N00b
- 999
- 18
Meh, people have incredibly high standards nowadays. The screenshots look fine. I dont understand your point. When did graphics become the end-all be-all, especially in a game trying to show hundreds in a fight...
Good devs do care. But you make very salient points. The times when everyone is pie in the sky spit-balling about mega AI (remember the Vanguard armchair dev threads?) Its either with a very high level producer or idea guy that cannot implement these ideas, and/or they are in full swing production and something like that is years off.
The other ideas or complaints that are good that come from these threads, the chances that a dev is reading them (even if they are on the official forums) and they get filtered back into the right hands are slim to none. The only use forum feedback has is when there is something "simple" say a camera view option that gets complained about enough, on reddit, various forums and official forums and maybe asked about at a live event - you get the idea... That's how feedback gets back to the devs.
Sure there is the chance a dev on their off time is reading and decides to do something, but its no guarantee. Most software professionals let alone game devs are incredibly busy and don't troll their work forums looking for things to do after work.
I consider this a must. If a company refuses to have some kind of free, open beta stress test right before release- we all know some kind of shenanigans is going on.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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I agree, I wasn't making the argument that people here should make a habitable place for devs so this place generates more revenue. I was simply arguing that owners of communities would see dev interaction as an upside if only because it increased revenue indirectly.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 4,864
- 6,821
Uhhh... wrong. Devs do care, a ton.
And many of them (especially the ones that care the most about their games) read as many forums as they have time for. They care because the vast majority of them came from the same pool of people that we do... gamers who spend too much of their lives obsessing about games. The only difference is that they pushed their obssession one step further and worked hard to make their talents useful the the companies that produce games.
They don't post on open forums anymore for a couple of reasons. First and foremost is that the nature of the internet gives people a sense that they can be as nasty and disgusting as they want to be went dealing with another human being. It's not fun or even constructive to put up with the endless personal attacks by people like you (or the rest of us). And although you know more about details of some of the the workings of the industry than most posters, you still get the personal part of it wrong 99 percent of the time.
Dev's are human beings, they are not evil fucking goblins out to steal your money. They are doing the best they can with the tools they have at their disposal, while trying to make the best game they can.... BECAUSE THEY CARE.
The other reason that DEVs don't post in forums like this is more mundane, it just isn't good for business. Anything and everything they say will be taken out of context and used against them. People all the time use one of their overly optimistic but offhand comments as proof that said devs are lying about some aspect or another of the game. And when said feature doesn't make it into the game the Dev's get blasted for it. All games change a ton from initial concept to finished product, it is the nature of the business and the REALITY of every creative endeavor.
I have been as guilty as anyone of calling the devs out. But my attacks are not on what they care about but whether they have the talent to do it. The problem in the biz is not a lack of devs caring but a lack of creative talent in key positions. Too many hacks run the show. They care about what they are creating but they suck at it.
You are right, but also most companies have a policy where lower level employees aren't even allowed to post on forums like this. That's why you see the Curt's and the Brad's posting -- they simply usually ignore the directives. Some indie companies and kickstarters or games in their natal stages often interact with forums like this, but not your typical large budget MMO unless its someone on the CS staff who also has the authorization to decide to change the policy.
As far as reading, sure, they read. Yes, this is their life blood and passion but most devs have families and work crunch time hours, and want to play other games (and betas) there is only so many hours in a day. Most developers aren't in their 20s.
As far as reading, sure, they read. Yes, this is their life blood and passion but most devs have families and work crunch time hours, and want to play other games (and betas) there is only so many hours in a day. Most developers aren't in their 20s.
Yeah. I don't think you're getting what Ut is saying. Lets simplify things to make sure everyone is on the same page categorically:
Do developers care if people like their game? Yes. Because it's validation for the ego, and means their product is successful.
What developers don't give a shit about is how people think the game should be designed. Why? Because the entire reason why most people go into the game industry is for the sole reason of getting to positions where they do get to make design calls. For better or worse, people in that position are going to go with what THEY want, and not essentially give up their power to random ass dudes who suggest stuff on a forum. As Ut mentioned earlier, your absolute best case scenario (which is still exceedingly rare) is that someone comes up with a revolutionary idea, and a nameless dev steals it and takes credit for himself. Yay?
Denaut
Trump's Staff
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I love, love reading the "armchair dev" threads. No word of sarcasm, I usually find them genuinely enjoyable and like participating in them. I read/lurk on a few forums, with this one being the only one I post on because, in general, the people here understand more and I have more interesting conversations with them.
I've been in the industry for... 8 1/2 years now (fuck I'm old) and I have never once read a "game idea" that I hadn't heard before and was worth stealing. There are a couple of reasons for this, but it is mostly because there are lots of smart people in the industry and good high level ideas are everywhere. My experience has shown that we, and our ideas, are all a lot less special than we think they are. What really matters is the execution, and the hundreds of little detailed ideas that solve and smooth our the problems/operation of the big ideas. There are also other very good ideas that aren't feasible for technical/cost reasons, and other things like that.
Now, with that being said, reading player feedback about your game isridiculously importantif only because there are many more players than you and most of them probably play the game more than you do. On the other hand, you have to parse that feedback because it comes from a certain perspective, and with incomplete information. So player feedback is an important piece, but still only a piece, of examining your game.
When developers "steal" ideas, it is usually from already completed games, because you don't have just a nebulous idea but a detailed model to study to see how many little problems were solved.
I've been in the industry for... 8 1/2 years now (fuck I'm old) and I have never once read a "game idea" that I hadn't heard before and was worth stealing. There are a couple of reasons for this, but it is mostly because there are lots of smart people in the industry and good high level ideas are everywhere. My experience has shown that we, and our ideas, are all a lot less special than we think they are. What really matters is the execution, and the hundreds of little detailed ideas that solve and smooth our the problems/operation of the big ideas. There are also other very good ideas that aren't feasible for technical/cost reasons, and other things like that.
Now, with that being said, reading player feedback about your game isridiculously importantif only because there are many more players than you and most of them probably play the game more than you do. On the other hand, you have to parse that feedback because it comes from a certain perspective, and with incomplete information. So player feedback is an important piece, but still only a piece, of examining your game.
When developers "steal" ideas, it is usually from already completed games, because you don't have just a nebulous idea but a detailed model to study to see how many little problems were solved.
Oh no, they're insulting my high level of intelligence, I'll stop using capitalization and punctuation to blend in with them again so that my opinions will be valued.
When I was young I was full of ideas and had few skills to make them. Now I am old and have all the skills and reject all the ideas. (been done, won't work, too hard, too x, too y)
A recent example of why this is wrong: 1st person view in this game.
Do they give a shit about one individual's opinion? No, and why should they? But a very strong opinion shared by many...yes, they care.