The Elder Scrolls Online

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
<Gold Donor>
16,293
12,056
Uhhh... wrong. Devs do care, a ton.
.
You are correct I should probably rephrase. Down and dirty developers do care a ton.The ones we hear from that are allowed to post on these forums don't give a shit and are mouth pieces of which feedback doesn't mean shit to them, and their value on a forum is fanboy central.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I love, love reading the "armchair dev" threads. No word of sarcasm, I usually find them genuinely enjoyable and like participating in them. I read/lurk on a few forums, with this one being the only one I post on because, in general, the people here understand more and I have more interesting conversations with them.

I've been in the industry for... 8 1/2 years now (fuck I'm old) and I have never once read a "game idea" that I hadn't heard before and was worth stealing. There are a couple of reasons for this, but it is mostly because there are lots of smart people in the industry and good high level ideas are everywhere. My experience has shown that we, and our ideas, are all a lot less special than we think they are. What really matters is the execution, and the hundreds of little detailed ideas that solve and smooth our the problems/operation of the big ideas. There are also other very good ideas that aren't feasible for technical/cost reasons, and other things like that.

Now, with that being said, reading player feedback about your game isridiculously importantif only because there are many more players than you and most of them probably play the game more than you do. On the other hand, you have to parse that feedback because it comes from a certain perspective, and with incomplete information. So player feedback is an important piece, but still only a piece, of examining your game.

When developers "steal" ideas, it is usually from already completed games, because you don't have just a nebulous idea but a detailed model to study to see how many little problems were solved.
I'm sorry, but every one of my ideas is 100% original and perfect. Tuco told me so.

That, and I can't believe that you've never seen a good idea on the internets. Either devs are lazy in general, or can't think out of the box in how to solve issues. I suppose this line of thinking leads us to DIKU-derivative-hotbar-questfuck-treadmill games over and over again.

I dare someone to make a game that doesn't follow the pattern of:

Log in for firs time
Make character, pick class.
Find first quest, heart, xp area
Repeat process of quests, events, fates, hearts, whatever in a boring grind.
Do dungeons.
Hit max level in 40-100 hours.
Do versions the same dungeons over again, but now the mobs hit a little harder.
Do dailys, battlegrounds for points or tokens and save to buy something.
Do raids once or twice a week for 2-8 months before you do another on.

No MMO has launched that has broken this paradigm and was actually worth purchasing.

AOC - Interesting combat (but ultimately shitty), broken game.
TERA - Best combat ever, boring quest grind with nothing at the end of it.
TSW - Good leveling experience, interest class system, ultimately the same hotbar combat quest grind game with heroic dungeons.
Rift - WOW clone, was fun for a while as something different. Development made it stale after they couldn't properly create or balance classes worth a shit and couldn't properly utilize their Rift tech.
FFXIV - It's a classic game, that's just boring. Fun for a time because it's a decent classic style game, but ultimately (imo) just boring. I won't play a game with a 2.5 GCD and hotbars.
GW2 - Great combat, static boring world. Terrible class development, beautifully crafted world that is ultimately not very dynamic. The combination of hearts, events, achievments and map completion was the 2nd step in an evolutionary process that started with WAR's public quests. We're still waiting for evolution though.
WAR - Shitty game, shitty engine, shitty design. Fun PVP until you got to level 20. Will always be thanked for Public Quests.

What else?
 

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
<Gold Donor>
16,293
12,056
A recent example of why this is wrong: 1st person view in this game.

Do they give a shit about one individual's opinion? No, and why should they? But a very strong opinion shared by many...yes, they care.
Do you * really * think 1st person view (Which is completely broken, and is nothing more than a camera zoom without a FOV fix) was because of feedback? Please tell me you are not that naive. This change was done to help sell it as Skyrim. Which is the only crowd they are trying to appeal too to sell boxes to capitalizeOFFsaid IP. And so you know, this wasn't even Zenimax's Online's call. It was pushed down from Zenimax itself for the very purpose listed above.

If they were looking for real fan feedback, they wouldn't have made this into a theme park consoled multiplayer defiance game after the outlash, and rather, concentrated on an open world multiplayer sandbox. What everyone who enjoys the IP wanted, and mods are still looking to introduce.

Obviously I do not speak for everyone. But I do know around 90% of the IP fanbase were severely disgusted when the details of this game emerged. And most are now even more fairly disgusted as they play it.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
Those saying devs do care , they just can't post because they might get their wee feelings hurt , explain this one.

Ponytail and Butler and Co put up front page , official company polls on what direction EQN should go on various issues , with most being useless polls , but two were about classes/racial restrictions and guns/ninjas in EQN.

Regardless about how you feel about the actual issues look at how the polls turned out - the running away winner out of 4 choices on each is the opposite of what they are going to do.

So a major mmo company puts up its own poll because "they care" and want us "involved" then choose to go the opposite way on every decision so far.

Devs once may have gave a shit and cared , now most are in their positions by luck and or ass-kissing and choose to appease whatever bean counter they need to.

A NFL QB ( even if the worst ) is still a bad ass athlete and skill player compared to 99.999% of the population criticizing them.

From what I see in the past 5 years , most of these mmo devs are where they are because of luck , and give me no reason to not think some other joe on a message board could be a better designer than them.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
I'm sorry, but every one of my ideas is 100% original and perfect. Tuco told me so.

That, and I can't believe that you've never seen a good idea on the internets. Either devs are lazy in general, or can't think out of the box in how to solve issues. I suppose this line of thinking leads us to DIKU-derivative-hotbar-questfuck-treadmill games over and over again.

I dare someone to make a game that doesn't follow the pattern of:

Log in for firs time
Make character, pick class.
Find first quest, heart, xp area
Repeat process of quests, events, fates, hearts, whatever in a boring grind.
Do dungeons.
Hit max level in 40-100 hours.
Do versions the same dungeons over again, but now the mobs hit a little harder.
Do dailys, battlegrounds for points or tokens and save to buy something.
Do raids once or twice a week for 2-8 months before you do another on.

No MMO has launched that has broken this paradigm and was actually worth purchasing.

AOC - Interesting combat (but ultimately shitty), broken game.
TERA - Best combat ever, boring quest grind with nothing at the end of it.
TSW - Good leveling experience, interest class system, ultimately the same hotbar combat quest grind game with heroic dungeons.
Rift - WOW clone, was fun for a while as something different. Development made it stale after they couldn't properly create or balance classes worth a shit and couldn't properly utilize their Rift tech.
FFXIV - It's a classic game, that's just boring. Fun for a time because it's a decent classic style game, but ultimately (imo) just boring. I won't play a game with a 2.5 GCD and hotbars.
GW2 - Great combat, static boring world. Terrible class development, beautifully crafted world that is ultimately not very dynamic. The combination of hearts, events, achievments and map completion was the 2nd step in an evolutionary process that started with WAR's public quests. We're still waiting for evolution though.
WAR - Shitty game, shitty engine, shitty design. Fun PVP until you got to level 20. Will always be thanked for Public Quests.

What else?
What I am saying is not that I've never seen a good idea from the internet, just I have never seen a good idea from the internet that I hadn't already seen, heard, or thought of.

Your observations of published AAA MMORPGs are totally 100% right. Having personally spent years working on 2 of the games in your list I can tell you that the people with their noses to the grindstone doing the actual day-to-day work all had tons of ideas to vastly improve the quality of the gaming experience, many of which have been echoed on this forum and forums like it. I can also tell you that those people with the good ideas were almost all universally ignored when they brought up deep, fundamental problems in the way things were being done, even when they offered solutions to those problems.

So the reason we ended up with all those crappy clones is that the people with the good ideas are generally not the people with the money or the ones in charge. The gaming industry, online games specifically, do not suffer from a lack good fundamental talent but instead its problems stem from absolutely abysmal leadership and management.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
Thing is, that pattern listed at the top? That's still what most people want. That's why we keep getting it from big studios. Even SWTOR made profit. Even a lot of the people here who CLAIM they want something different, deep down, they don't. That pattern is addictive and proven for a reason.

Proof? There's lots of indie-style kickstarters that talk about some different features, new stuff, and they never reach any level of funding. People say they want a niche game with not-for-the-masses features, but have the unspoken requirement of "Oh I also want it from a big studio and want it to be very popular and have all my friends play it and be super polished". It's just an unrealistic set of demands.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
Thing is, that pattern listed at the top? That's still what most people want. That's why we keep getting it from big studios. Even SWTOR made profit. Even a lot of the people here who CLAIM they want something different, deep down, they don't. That pattern is addictive and proven for a reason.

Proof? There's lots of indie-style kickstarters that talk about some different features, new stuff, and they never reach any level of funding. People say they want a niche game with not-for-the-masses features, but have the unspoken requirement of "Oh I also want it from a big studio and want it to be very popular and have all my friends play it and be super polished". It's just an unrealistic set of demands.
This is actually part of it. There are plenty of studies that show what peoplesaythey want and what theyactuallywant are often quite different. The classic example is coffee, Americans say they want a rich, bold roast but what they buy is light and weak.
 

Lord Blanco_sl

shitlord
63
0
This is actually part of it. There are plenty of studies that show what peoplesaythey want and what theyactuallywant are often quite different. The classic example is coffee, Americans say they want a rich, bold roast but what they buy is light and weak.
just fyi, light roast coffee is stronger than rich and bold
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
Yes , the more a bean is roasted , the more caffeine is lost. I've had folks try and explain why they insist on the bold dark roasted coffee because they need more caffeine than my light roasted ,tasteless stuff.

I just chuckle at them.

Edit , also unfortunately the cheap , harsh tasting Robusta beans have more caffeine than the Arabica that most good coffee uses.

So drink your shit Maxwell house/Folgers if you want the most caffeine.

Unfortunately I can't stand that stuff.

(apologies for continuing the cooking class hijack)
 

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
<Gold Donor>
16,293
12,056
So anyway, back to the game, viral marketing strategies, and what we expect out of this title.

I think we had some really cool discussions happening here. I love it when people speak their mind and don't sugar coat it. Makes me happy.
 

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
<Gold Donor>
16,293
12,056
Front page, third post down on reddit right now

http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/c...itten_by_paid/


edit: and the original article source: the WSJhttp://www.marketwatch.com/story/20-...MW_latest_news

NY Attorney General fined companies over 350,000 for fake online reviews... I think that's not even a drop in the bucket.
Awesome. Unfortunately, I wish that scope of law entailed trolling message forums and hyping people up about a game.

At least that is an awesome start to get these scum suckers off the internet.
 
158
0
This is actually part of it. There are plenty of studies that show what peoplesaythey want and what theyactuallywant are often quite different. The classic example is coffee, Americans say they want a rich, bold roast but what they buy is light and weak.
Experts and connoisseurs are significantly more consistent. Related, people intellectualizing and describing their preferences often incur a temporary alteration in their preferences, especially amongst non-experts.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
While it's definitely crap, it all cuts both ways. They'll pay shills to not only pump themselves up, but also tear down others.

And it's also acting like non-shill reviews are good and valid too. People all have different standards, and some people will trash and rant and rave over nothing, while others will praise just the fact that their food wasn't obviously spit in.

I guess my point is - noone should take any judgement anyone you don't personally know at face value. Take facts and descriptions moreso, but not their opinions. But even those "facts" can be skewed.
 

roger_sl

shitlord
180
0
Experts and connoisseurs are significantly more consistent. Related, people intellectualizing and describing their preferences often incur a temporary alteration in their preferences, especially amongst non-experts.
rrr_img_44572.jpg
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
45,441
73,513
He's right though. People here are pretty consistent in what they want and what makes them enjoy an MMO.

I also think that the casual gamers I know are pretty on target with what they want and what they really enjoy. Most casual gamers I talk to want watered down games that are easy and don't require much effort.