The various fanclubs of people around here get pretty creepily attached and obsessive.
The Elder Scrolls Online
- Thread starter Anomander Rake
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This is total and utter bullshit. Im sure all the games, save a very few, have all been profitable up to this point. Even swtor is probably in the black now and making money. And that was supposedly one of the most expensive ever to make.
I just dont buy your line of reasoning because if all these games were such utter failures and lost sooo much money, why do they keep making them? Money people behind these games are not dumb, bro. These things are cash cows no matter if you or I deem them to be failures. Go check over at mmorpg.com and see how many more are in production....
It think the problem here is that everyone expects numbers of Wow to make money on these things and this is false. WoW is so far above the curve and such an anomaly, its not even realistic to reach that high. And lets break WoW down for a minute. that game makes BILLIONS of dollars every year. So a mmorpg that even has 1/10 of wows numbers are still raking it in.
khalid
Unelected Mod
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It is hard not to seem obsessed with UT if you want some honest discussion of MMOs. All UT does is throw shit around constantly at games, claiming nefarious inside sources, all while dismissing any positive poster of the games being a shill, a fanboi, or straight up being the games developers. On the other hand, any poster that says a game is shit, he hails as some second coming of Nostradamus.
No other poster shits up more of the MMO threads than UT and he is a large part of the reason why many of us don't even bother to post in these threads anymore. If anyone shit up as many MMO threads as he did, they would be RRPed constantly. However, since he was "right" about vanguard or something, we are supposed to treat him as some sort of seer of delphi.
If you want a great example of the silliness of UT, just go back a few posts where he asserts that if only he was in charge, everything would go perfectly. Heh.
It's like this in many industries. Creatives and technical people get promoted to positions of management all the time because it's the next rung of the corporate ladder. The idea is that if you can do a job really well, you should be able to manage other people doing the same job. They're different skills though. It's probably the biggest source of stress and burnout that I see.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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That was just on the last page, and yes, it would. Because I have experience in management, leadership, how to control tasks, how to budget, which milestones to hit, which ones to leave off, how to make sure my teams aren't playing WoW half their shift for "Research", and at the end of the day, instead of jamming 80 hours a week into my employees work days, they would be hard pressed to hit 50 because they didn't jerk off every 4 hours a day for the first 4 years until the finish line quickly approached and/or were about to lose their jobs. Why? Because I would't let it happen. If I saw it, they would be out ont he street with their little keyboard, mouse, and little play toys brought in to decorate the cube for "inspiration" upside down in a gutter. Oh, I also wouldn't pull a Kern or Sage, I would let teams work their magic, as they have upcoming talent and it should be utilized ACROSS the teams, and to instill team happiness, promoting from within WITHIN vertical segments of the group. If anyone has to work with an asshole, I'd know. They would be shitcanned. Not like I would hire them anyway, because I know who the shitbags are, and who they aren't.
Did you know the SWG dev team actually went to strip clubs and used funding money to buy dancers all night for 3 days so they could base animations off the ladies for cantina NPC's and player dancers?
Now * That * takes some management balls.
Now you know what it feels like to be a normal gamer talking to a neckbeard that insists that sitting and camping a single spawn for 10 hours is dynamic, emergent and community building gameplay.
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I'll let someone else pull out the statistics, but I think your view is overly optimistic.
We could argue about the definition of "failure" all day, I suppose. There are catastrophic failures, like 38 Studios, and then there are slow, lingering failures. I suppose if you want to set the bar for "success" as anything that avoids a catastrophic failure then you win the argument.
It seems pretty clear that only a select few of the thus-far attempted MMOs have achieved the level profitability and longevity that most game studios would consider "successful". I'd wager quite a lot of money that even fewer MMOs have evenmetinvestor expectations- much less surpassed them.
Besides, none of that is the crux of my argument anyway. Anyone who knows the mmo industry even at a prima facie level knows that there are some serious problems with the industry as a whole and these problems are a large part of why many of the MMOs we are seeing are underwhelming to say the least.
Schags
Bronze Knight of the Realm
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I would define success and failure as not having to let go most of your studio post launch because you couldn't retain 75% of the player base from your box sales after the first month and then need to retool your game to nickle and dime people with a skeleton crew to eventually make the development cost back. But that is just me.
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
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We used to say you measure an MMO's success a year after release. Nothing since WoW has grown significantly in numbers other than Eve most likely a year+ out.. Maybe DDO after f2p? It's now a fast food cookie cutter joke of an experience everywhere you look.
Anyone with half a fucking clue knows SWTOR is a failure in what is was planned on making.
The producers themselves said they were shooting for WoW or better sub numbers.
It doesn't matter it may finally be in the black and making a little money now.
They planned on it being a 10 million subscribers a month game.
SWTOR's a failure by their own goals and what they set out for it to make.
EA didn't come out and blatantly say it's not one of their priorities a few months after launch because it was doing so well. It was because it had failed investors expectations.
Horribly.
The producers themselves said they were shooting for WoW or better sub numbers.
It doesn't matter it may finally be in the black and making a little money now.
They planned on it being a 10 million subscribers a month game.
SWTOR's a failure by their own goals and what they set out for it to make.
EA didn't come out and blatantly say it's not one of their priorities a few months after launch because it was doing so well. It was because it had failed investors expectations.
Horribly.
Thankfully, it's not like that in my industry. Usually the people trying for supervisory/management positions are those that are just lazier or stressed-out by the work of "production" (with production meaning keeping airlines from crashing into one another). That they only get a very small, almost marginal pay-bump is a "good thing". That said though, everyone complains about management here, because they got into that position because they couldn't hack it at their lower level position... it's literally the worst people getting promoted... still, I think that is almost better than good artists/designers getting promoted, because then you're just losing their "talent" from the pool of people working on the game.
Ultimately, the movie industry I think has it figured out the best. Writing team -> lead writer -> possibly director or producer production assistant -> producer - > executive producer
grip > key grip = gaffer -> director of photography ... extra -> supporting actor -> lead actor ...
I think the game industry definitely has too much overlap between production and design and/or art direction ...
Even at a "successful" studio like double fine- it was interesting to see all their failings on Broken Age, mostly because their management team seemed incompetent at management, and a lot of their extras that they pulled in to help them "manage" the product, with expensive sounding titles, were even worse at managing and weren't actually even pulling the strings at all or making any decisions.
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Funny you say this, but realistically, every game that released since WOW had those expectations. And im sure the investors of those games were fed the same bullshit. So maybe its time that the expectations are cut down to realistic levels? Because what we see now, post WoW is what we get. Huge box sales with the right marketing, and lucky enough to keep 40-50% retention, if that, for the long haul.
I also think one has to look at what a success is in the current market. Because if its WoW type numbers, then good luck on meeting those expectations. So what we are left with is a bunch of mmorpgs hovering at around 100K-1mill subs. Are those failures? Sure if you are comparing them to WoW type numbers, but we all know that WoW is an anomaly. So you canot really compare.
And I do agree that there are serious problems. We need a revolution and I think (hope) it will come sometime in the near future. One thing that I do agree with Ut's rants is that the current crop of leadership going house to house producing shit needs to all go away. Time to bring in some fresh eager blood. Someone that is not afraid to push the envelope in innovation, not just copying and refining the status quo by 5%.
This is why im eager to see what EQ next will bring to the table, more bullshit marketing spin? Or is it really groundbreaking revolution on things such as procedurally generated content, the storybricks thing, mob AI "hive mind" that changes and evolves based on what the players do. Because if you think about it, this is the area that the current crop of mmorpgs fail on. Content generation at a glacial pace, even for casual types. The old "raid the same dungeons over and over for +3 gear" has been done to death and needs to be re-examined. We need something new. Right now its like playing the same game over and over except you have different classes, skills to learn. Which goes back to my first point why wow continues to be so sucessful, the market is flooed with WoW knockoffs, some poorly made at that. So why play the shitty copies if you can play the real thing?
You go thread to thread on these and other forums those are the two main things people bitch about. We basically had EQ which introduced the "raid" game, WoW refined it into something more casual friendly and then after that 20 games that copied it verbatim. Now its time to take the next evolutionary step into something else.
The market is ripe for a new revolutionary game. You can just see it and feel it. Shit, every new AAA mo that comes out has fantastic sales, but then people quickly figure out that its just more of the same. And the cycle continues...
Blackwulf
N00b
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This is an interesting conversation, and, at the considerable risk of being blasted for defending the "good old boys," I'd like play devil's advocate on a couple of points that struck me while reading:
1. Utnayan is full of shit as usual. Your response to Bruman was a non-response. Seriously. If you are going to get on these forums and say you could run this project so much better, but you just can't cause of your personality, etc. Well, then shit, you fucking CAN'T. Part of the reason Sage, et al get into the positions they have is because they have good people skills. That's right, they play the politics. You have admitted you can't do that. Good luck getting a team of 100+ prima dona programmers who all have their own "vision" to come together and create a product as complex as this MMO. I'm not saying it's impossible or that Firor and Sage are doing a great job - I really don't know. I've never been there, and I've not spoken to even 1 employee about the quality of their management. I will say that they all must be good actors because the devs featured in videos and interviews seem pretty happy and excited to be working on this product. Which brings me to point number:
2. Managers. Sometimes you love them, sometimes you hate them. They have to make a million compromises to get something done, because there is no way to do your job right and please everyone. Here's an example from my own world: I'm a teacher. I've had principals that I like a lot, and principals that I thought were complete clowns. Even my principals that I thought were great made some dumb mistakes over a span of 7 years. Could I write a letter completely lambasting any one of my principals and highlighting all the things they've done wrong? Absolutely. Some teachers that decided they didn't like the way a principal ran things have done exactly that. They also gather in the copy room and talk shit at every free moment. About every principal I've ever had (10+), even the ones that I thought were awesome. It's human nature, man. If you aren't getting your way, and you don't feel appreciated, you are going to talk shit. Am I making an excuse for Sage and Firor, and all the others? Not really, cause I don't know exactly what they've been accused of, other than sucking. I just know that there are always two sides to every story, and I bet there are some devs that feel very appreciated and happy with what they are working on.
Heck, forget the fact that these guys have to please hundreds of coders, how about the investors? How about the suits at the holding company? How about they guys over at Bethesda that are irritated about having their IP fucked with? I don't envy anyone in charge of this project, especially after things started to go sideways and they missed a couple of deadlines.
1. Utnayan is full of shit as usual. Your response to Bruman was a non-response. Seriously. If you are going to get on these forums and say you could run this project so much better, but you just can't cause of your personality, etc. Well, then shit, you fucking CAN'T. Part of the reason Sage, et al get into the positions they have is because they have good people skills. That's right, they play the politics. You have admitted you can't do that. Good luck getting a team of 100+ prima dona programmers who all have their own "vision" to come together and create a product as complex as this MMO. I'm not saying it's impossible or that Firor and Sage are doing a great job - I really don't know. I've never been there, and I've not spoken to even 1 employee about the quality of their management. I will say that they all must be good actors because the devs featured in videos and interviews seem pretty happy and excited to be working on this product. Which brings me to point number:
2. Managers. Sometimes you love them, sometimes you hate them. They have to make a million compromises to get something done, because there is no way to do your job right and please everyone. Here's an example from my own world: I'm a teacher. I've had principals that I like a lot, and principals that I thought were complete clowns. Even my principals that I thought were great made some dumb mistakes over a span of 7 years. Could I write a letter completely lambasting any one of my principals and highlighting all the things they've done wrong? Absolutely. Some teachers that decided they didn't like the way a principal ran things have done exactly that. They also gather in the copy room and talk shit at every free moment. About every principal I've ever had (10+), even the ones that I thought were awesome. It's human nature, man. If you aren't getting your way, and you don't feel appreciated, you are going to talk shit. Am I making an excuse for Sage and Firor, and all the others? Not really, cause I don't know exactly what they've been accused of, other than sucking. I just know that there are always two sides to every story, and I bet there are some devs that feel very appreciated and happy with what they are working on.
Heck, forget the fact that these guys have to please hundreds of coders, how about the investors? How about the suits at the holding company? How about they guys over at Bethesda that are irritated about having their IP fucked with? I don't envy anyone in charge of this project, especially after things started to go sideways and they missed a couple of deadlines.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Heheh. One of the gaming companies I worked for back in the 90's use to have the Charger girls come by and cheer us on. And we didn't even have motion capture back then. We also had excellent goal line seats on Qualcomm field for the NFL games. And since we were doing naval warfare games, we had access to much of the cool shit at Naval Air Station Miramar (TopGun). Which is now owned by the Marines. Coming from the engineering biz where every penny is scrutinized, it was incredible to play with all the perks and excess of being a gaming dev. It's too bad the salary sucked and the people who run the show are tools.
While I agree with your assessment of the regular mismanagement of money by most gaming companies, it is futile for you to rail against it. It is a part of the entertainment industry as a whole, as is the crappy salary and creepy managers. It has been that way since the beginning of time. People will bitch and moan about spending an extra 25 cents for a loaf of bread but they will throw all their dollars at entertainers without a second thought, or regrets.
I stop following the thread for a couple days and I come back tothis.
UT, do you realize that's quite the large difference betweensayingwhat you "would do" and actually doing it?
You seem to think that you're the first person who's ever thought, "These people are doing it all wrong but it's so obvious what needs to be done! I bet I could run everything 10x better than they could. If I only had the chance..."
UT, do you realize that's quite the large difference betweensayingwhat you "would do" and actually doing it?
You seem to think that you're the first person who's ever thought, "These people are doing it all wrong but it's so obvious what needs to be done! I bet I could run everything 10x better than they could. If I only had the chance..."
Maybe yes, maybe no. It sure sounds great on paper but it reeks of foolish optimism.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Oh poor them. They actually have to do their job it must be sooo fucken hard. Cut them some slack? They've failed on numerous occasions on different games. Results are all anyone gives a shit about and they haven't delivered and yet they seem to keep getting key positions in big dev teams. Then you try come here and expect us to feel sorry for them because they have to deal with shit that EVERY GAME DEV DEALS WITH. Everyone in every line of work has to deal with shit that sucks but we are supposed to cut them some slack because of some pesky investors or the suits at the holding company. Honestly everything you type in this thread is complete and utter shit. In ANY other industry they would have be shit canned years ago. There is a reason the MMO industry has been stagnant for years because the SAME shit cunts keep rotating between projects. Let's not forget they get payed a fuck load to deal with these exact things. Fuck me. There are doctors on less money then these guys but we should cut them some fucken slack?
Give me a fucken break. "I want to lead a dev team but please don't put pressure on me to deliver on a tens of million dollar project I just can't handle it." I don't even know how you survive posting on this forum. You offer absolutely nothing but complete bullshit. The reason I like this forum is for better or worse most people have rational things to say but all you do is spew up bullshit.