The Elder Scrolls Online

DMK_sl said:

The reason I like this forum is for better or worse most people have rational things to say but all you do is spew up bullshit.

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Really? I like to come here for the kind of irrational shit that flies by because of the low moderation. I find it interesting.

Blackwulf_sl said:

Part of the reason Sage, et al get into the positions they have is because they have good people skills. That's right, they play the politics.

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Since when did they change the meaning of "people skills"? While I realise that some arsehats are under the impression that "good people skills" is telling someone to fuck right off and go to hell, and that person beaming with joy at the prospect of traveling. That isn't people skills, that isn't even politics, that's just downright fucking evil.

Are you telling me that Sage as his elk all have jobs because they are soulless cunts with nothing better to do but prop up their own little thrones on the bones of all those that have been unfortunate enough to work for them? Because I'm pretty sure that what you just did, but you're too stupid to understand the larger impacts of these behaviours.

Sabbat_sl said:

Since when did they change the meaning of "people skills"? While I realise that some arsehats are under the impression that "good people skills" is telling someone to fuck right off and go to hell, and that person beaming with joy at the prospect of traveling. That isn't people skills, that isn't even politics, that's just downright fucking evil.

Are you telling me that Sage as his elk all have jobs because they are soulless cunts with nothing better to do but prop up their own little thrones on the bones of all those that have been unfortunate enough to work for them? Because I'm pretty sure that what you just did, but you're too stupid to understand the larger impacts of these behaviours.

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Uh, no - just speculating, but I'm assuming they still have jobs because they build strong networks with other people in the industry. People skills.

AlekseiFL_sl said:

I seen the video's and the graphics look like fucking game from 2004-2007 max and scream Hero engine.

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Just speaking specifically about graphics, who fucking cares? WOW has sold, like a fucking cazillion boxes and subs using that horrible fucking cartoony ass graphics last I checked. FUCK GRAPHICS. I for one am sick and tired of everyone creating these one billion poly count characters that need a fucking computer from NASA to run a group or raid setting, and the gameplay sucks ass. Its time for the industry to back off spending 50% of the development cycle drawing these stupid, detailed, insane graphics, and then vomiting up a half completed game cause they blew their entire load to make the game look awsome. UO looked like crap, was an awsome game, EQ looked like crap, was a great game, WOW looks like crap, people love it by the millions.....Hell ever seen the graphics on Minecraft? Yea, point made. FUCK GRAPHICS

mkopec_sl said:

This is total and utter bullshit. Im sure all the games, save a very few, have all been profitable up to this point. Even swtor is probably in the black now and making money. And that was supposedly one of the most expensive ever to make.

I just dont buy your line of reasoning because if all these games were such utter failures and lost sooo much money, why do they keep making them? Money people behind these games are not dumb, bro. These things are cash cows no matter if you or I deem them to be failures. Go check over at mmorpg.com and see how many more are in production....

It think the problem here is that everyone expects numbers of Wow to make money on these things and this is false. WoW is so far above the curve and such an anomaly, its not even realistic to reach that high. And lets break WoW down for a minute. that game makes BILLIONS of dollars every year. So a mmorpg that even has 1/10 of wows numbers are still raking it in.

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There is something that I believe it's called RoI. If I put 250 million dollars on the table, I don't want 2 millions profit, in fact I'm gonna fucking kill whoever wasted my time and my money with that investment.
GTA V is a nice investement, so why making stupid MMOs when I can make a game that will triple my budget in 24h from release?

I have no experience with this industry and its self appointed superstars, I for once, wouldn't hire a single one of them, nor even ask them an opinion about anything.

It baffles me that people are that cozy at work, if what Schags posted is reality, I think a couple whips would do wonders in some places. It's one thing having a friendly environment, it's quite different doing fuck all then staying 12+ hours to fix the fact you did fuck all in the first 8 hours. I work in a totally different environment and a coffee break is never denied, but if there are some things to do, you gotta do them on time, or you risk having to hunt for another job very fast (and not 5 years later).

Miele_sl said:

There is something that I believe it's called RoI. If I put 250 million dollars on the table, I don't want 2 millions profit, in fact I'm gonna fucking kill whoever wasted my time and my money with that investment.
GTA V is a nice investement, so why making stupid MMOs when I can make a game that will triple my budget in 24h from release?

I have no experience with this industry and its self appointed superstars, I for once, wouldn't hire a single one of them, nor even ask them an opinion about anything.

It baffles me that people are that cozy at work, if what Schags posted is reality, I think a couple whips would do wonders in some places. It's one thing having a friendly environment, it's quite different doing fuck all then staying 12+ hours to fix the fact you did fuck all in the first 8 hours. I work in a totally different environment and a coffee break is never denied, but if there are some things to do, you gotta do them on time, or you risk having to hunt for another job very fast (and not 5 years later).

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Because it is not that easy to just make a GTAV. GTA is one of the most successful franchises of all time. I'd guess it is one of the top in terms of commercial success.

Utnayan_sl said:

And you know why? They concentrate on making a fun game,they all play it, they all have a passion from the top down, and they all know if they make a fun game people will play it. I was just playing the battlefield 4 demo. Know what's missing? Soul. A little touch like adding elevator music on the ride up to B. Not there. Why? Soul as in bioshock infinite. When you have resources spent on a three minute segment of the beach boys barbershop quartet which players will only see once. Or the flashback to the 80's with a revenge of the Jedi sign (before the name was switched to return of the Jedi) with a tears for fears song playing. That shit gets remembered. Soulless shit never will. And that's all these relics are capable of making.

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Bingo

Utnayan_sl said:

That's exactly what he just said. As he kisses their ass here so he can politically maneuver better interviews so he has more hits on his writings here on the junkies nation.

And I know that for a fact blackwulf so don't start the bullshit. I'm still debating whether it not I start writing articles for this site. But if I do, I guarantee you I won't be kissing ass, and I also guarantee you it will impact this sites ability to speak with developers.

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Eh, on the one hand, I just feel like I'm being rational, but on the other, I'm sure what you say is true to some extent. I'm human. To be honest, in every interview I've seen with Firor, Wheeler, Aliprando, and Konkle (maybe to a lesser extent), I've thought they seemed genuine, and really into the game - like they seem like really good people who are building something they would like to play. I have to admit, though, that Sage, from day one, has given me a bit of a 'salesman vibe' like - I don't trust him. I don't know him at all, but he just uses too much PR speak, and too many generalities, and just.. his tone.

Also, you keep lumping Firor in with failed devs, but the last game he worked on was DAOC, and I think it was the best game ever. Even with TOA and NF, if he had a part in those. There were some very original things going on with TOA. It was a misstep, but I don't think it ruined the game. I played for years after that. I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt until we see how ESO turns out.

Blackwulf_sl said:

Eh, on the one hand, I just feel like I'm being rational, but on the other, I'm sure what you say is true to some extent. I'm human. To be honest, in every interview I've seen with Firor, Wheeler, Aliprando, and Konkle (maybe to a lesser extent), I've thought they seemed genuine, and really into the game - like they seem like really good people who are building something they would like to play. I have to admit, though, that Sage, from day one, has given me a bit of a 'salesman vibe' like - I don't trust him. I don't know him at all, but he just uses too much PR speak, and too many generalities, and just.. his tone.

Also, you keep lumping Firor in with failed devs, but the last game he worked on was DAOC, and I think it was the best game ever. Even with TOA and NF, if he had a part in those. There were some very original things going on with TOA. It was a misstep, but I don't think it ruined the game. I played for years after that. I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt until we see how ESO turns out.

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DAOC stands as my favorite MMO of all time but Matt stopped being a designer when ToA was released which was their worst expansion hands down, in my opinion. Most of the design work for RvR was Rob Denton, Mark Jacobs, and Matt Firor (in that order). There is no telling how much input Matt has been involved with when it comes to TESO design systems now that he's a director so it's quite easy to lump him in with the rest of the bunch.

I've yet to see a developer commentary/interview where they were NOT excited and genuine about "their" game or they didn't look like good people who were building something they would like to play, hell, just look at Paul Barnett.

Utnayan_sl said:

And you know why? They concentrate on making a fun game, they all play it, they all have a passion from the top down, and they all know if they make a fun game people will play it. I was just playing the battlefield 4 demo. Know what's missing? Soul. A little touch like adding elevator music on the ride up to B. Not there. Why? Soul as in bioshock infinite. When you have resources spent on a three minute segment of the beach boys barbershop quartet which players will only see once. Or the flashback to the 80's with a revenge of the Jedi sign (before the name was switched to return of the Jedi) with a tears for fears song playing. That shit gets remembered. Soulless shit never will. And that's all these relics are capable of making.

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This is all true. When you love your work, you will do a better job at it.

But, skill is a it part of it too. A great game needs great artists, great designers, great animators and great programmers - and I'm not sure in which order. A big question is, how can you be sure, as a team leader, that you build a team encompassing those four aspects. I'm not surprised that, when hiring for a game in production, managers are looking at those with some experience. Even if the games the person had previously worked on were only marginally successful. These games cost so much nowadays...yada yada, you know the rest...

Miele_sl said:

It baffles me that people are that cozy at work, if what Schags posted is reality, I think a couple whips would do wonders in some places. It's one thing having a friendly environment, it's quite different doing fuck all then staying 12+ hours to fix the fact you did fuck all in the first 8 hours. I work in a totally different environment and a coffee break is never denied, but if there are some things to do, you gotta do them on time, or you risk having to hunt for another job very fast (and not 5 years later).

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Like I said, it doesn't need to be where people end up working all of these hours. When you're focused and get your work done the game industry still feels like a great casual place to work. I rarely feel like I'm never going to have enough time to do tasks and when the occasion pops up where I feel I need to put extra work in I'll drop in on a Saturday for a few hours to get it done. To be fair, I learned to work efficient while working as a designer on EQ. By the time I got onto the design team there the team/tools were a well oiled machine turning out expansions every 6 months.

I think one of the biggest reasons for this besides it feeling like a casual environment and people lose site that they're supposed to be professional is a lack of training. Most studios that I have worked at more or less let you run some training documents and mess around with the tools for the first week that you're hired then you're unleashed onto the project and expected to be running full speed. I'm strictly talking about design here because Art and Programming have specific skills that are displayed when being hired in the first place. I mean, if you show you're good with crayolas you're obviously going to be good to go after seeing the art process.

Being a designer isn't just about ideas though. It's actually a lot of work to get all of that content in game and you rely on tools working and actually knowing how to use them and if you're slow and not the best at implementation then you'll obviously suffer. That is where training should be helping these people. Getting your best in rooms with other and showing them how they should approach it rarely has happened at the places I've been at.

Just a note to Blackwulf, there are a lot of people in the industry who are nice and friendly and they are fun to hang out with. Then you see them at work and you just know they shouldn't be working there. Aliprando isn't even the lead of her team but was put out there as a pretty face. The guy who is the lead of her team is a pretty good guy and I feel bad that they picked her to speak for the systems he was designing because of this. He is a passionate guy about work and deserved the credit for his work externally.

Schags_sl said:

I would define success and failure as not having to let go most of your studio post launch because you couldn't retain 75% of the player base from your box sales after the first month and then need to retool your game to nickle and dime people with a skeleton crew to eventually make the development cost back. But that is just me.

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Well said sir.

"And I know that for a fact blackwulf so don't start the bullshit. I'm still debating whether it not I start writing articles for this site. But if I do, I guarantee you I won't be kissing ass, and I also guarantee you it will impact this sites ability to speak with developers."

You are so fucking bad ass.

Seriously though... is there any point at which this thread is gonna discuss the actual game, and not its dev team?

Out of curiosity, has anyone heard anything about those open dungeons they mentioned, and what exactly that means to them?

We'll start discussing the game, when there's a game to discuss.

Sabbat_sl said:

We'll start discussing the game, when there's a game to discuss.

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While waiting for that, let me introduce you a thrilling community event, The Developer Question Of The Week :

Draegan_sl said:

Now you know what it feels like to be a normal gamer talking to a neckbeard that insists that sitting and camping a single spawn for 10 hours is dynamic, emergent and community building gameplay.

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Says someone who's never done it!?


I'm still waiting on a beta for this game.. I need to confirm what I already know:-(