The Free Will Thread

Simas_sl

shitlord
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Saw this article today and couldn't remember if we'd hit this topic on here.

Theres No Such Thing as Free Will - The Atlantic

We know that changes to brain chemistry can alter behavior-otherwise neither alcohol nor antipsychotics would have their desired effects. The same holds true for brain structure: Cases of ordinary adults becoming murderers or pedophiles after developing a brain tumor demonstrate how dependent we are on the physical properties of our gray stuff.

Many scientists say that the American physiologist Benjamin Libet demonstrated in the 1980s that we have no free will. It was already known that electrical activity builds up in a person's brain before she, for example, moves her hand; Libet showed that this buildup occurs before the person consciously makes a decision to move. The conscious experience of deciding to act, which we usually associate with free will, appears to be an add-on, a post hoc reconstruction of events that occurs after the brain has already set the act in motion.

The 20th-century nature-nurture debate prepared us to think of ourselves as shaped by influences beyond our control. But it left some room, at least in the popular imagination, for the possibility that we could overcome our circumstances or our genes to become the author of our own destiny. The challenge posed by neuroscience is more radical: It describes the brain as a physical system like any other, and suggests that we no more will it to operate in a particular way than we will our heart to beat...
Who believes in free will? I generally don't but don't spend a lot of time getting hung up about and still judge people for their actions.
 

Brand

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If it doesn't exist...It was preordained that I would believe it does exist.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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I don't believe in polls that ask questions in the format of Do I Believe...
 

Simas_sl

shitlord
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Cool video.

Chaos, what do you mean by doesn't matter? I tend to agree it doesn't matter in how I live my day to day to life. But the article brings up the idea that if many people accept there is no free will they may be more likely to act amorally. Of course, if free will does not exist then whatever will be will be. But if it does then beliefs about it would matter if the idea in the article is correct.
 

Aldarion

Egg Nazi
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Yes, because even if we cant prove it -- and even if the alternative ends up being proven -- the alternative is terrible.

The only intellectually honest response, if free will doesnt actually exist, is to never hold anyone accountable for their actions. Society cannot function without the belief in free will whether its true or not.

Its also worth noting that there are alternative interpretations for the old research being discussed here. The case against free will isnt closed.
 

chaos

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Cool video.

Chaos, what do you mean by doesn't matter? I tend to agree it doesn't matter in how I live my day to day to life. But the article brings up the idea that if many people accept there is no free will they may be more likely to act amorally. Of course, if free will does not exist then whatever will be will be. But if it does then beliefs about it would matter if the idea in the article is correct.
It doesn't matter. If I choose A or B, I still chose A or B. Whether it was a magic choice I made independent of the universe or the summation of every chemical reaction in the universe up to that point, it's really inconsequential to the outcome of the action I just chose. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got shit to do.

Whether people may or may not be inclined to act immorally in the wake of absolute certainty about this question sounds like FUD to me.
 

chaos

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Yes, because even if we cant prove it -- and even if the alternative ends up being proven -- the alternative is terrible.

The only intellectually honest response, if free will doesnt actually exist, is to never hold anyone accountable for their actions. Society cannot function without the belief in free will whether its true or not.

Its also worth noting that there are alternative interpretations for the old research being discussed here. The case against free will isnt closed.
You're just being fucking silly. Of course people can be held accountable for their actions. Saying "free will doesn't exist" doesn't mean that society just ends.
 

Simas_sl

shitlord
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It doesn't matter. If I choose A or B, I still chose A or B. Whether it was a magic choice I made independent of the universe or the summation of every chemical reaction in the universe up to that point, it's really inconsequential to the outcome of the action I just chose. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got shit to do.

Whether people may or may not be inclined to act immorally in the wake of absolute certainty about this question sounds like FUD to me.
Oh I got you. I tend to agree, at least in that I don't really let it fuck my day and I still judge people's actions regardless. You already addressed Aldarion, who raised the other side. Many people agree with him though, if there's no free will there can be no blame.
 

chaos

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Yeah that's silly, to me. "Blame" doesn't really matter either, in the grand scheme, although I understand it is important to those personally involved. Certain actions must be discouraged in society. That's part of how we shape society. Holding people accountable for unwanted actions discourages those actions. Whether or not "free will" played a part in the action is irrelevant.

I think people are just confused about what "free will" is. I had this same kind of crisis when I first heard Sam Harris talking about it. Once I realized what he meant when he said "free will doesn't exist" then I realized how it utterly did not matter to me, or to us really.

It is interesting, as a sort of though experiment thing. But int he practical "day to day" aspect, not so much.
 

Kuro

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I believe!
rrr_img_134015.jpg
 

lurkingdirk

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The article in the first post is an interesting article. The opening sentence is wildly misleading--I'd say that belief in the sort of free will that is supposedly undermined by the relevant scientific research has been a minority view for most of the history of philosophy and theology (except among people working specifically on free will in analytic philosophy since about 1980); and the research in question doesn't touch belief in freedom as it has more commonly been conceived. But the conclusions of the research itself are also hotly contested and, I think, the experiments he refers to in the first half or so of the article (about how signals have already been sent by your brain before you actually make a decision to act) are mostly scoffed at by people working on free will. I'm not absolutely sure about that last part, but I do know that pretty much nobody believes that science has simply "shown" that there is no free will.
 

Agraza

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I think it's bullshit, or at least my brain decided I would type that.

We have free will. And Aldarion is right, without it, morality and our justice system can't function properly. Many laws specifically require intent. If you can't possess intent because it's not under your control, you're not guilty. All your behavior is due to something other than your conscious mind.
 

Malakriss

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If there is no free will then yes, the justice system as currently envisioned is irrelevant and it would default over to whatever the group in power deems as acceptable behavior. The death penalty argument would actually be stronger in a will-less world since you're simply removing the harmful elements from the species/society/country without regard to "rehabilitation." Sacrifice the few for the many makes a lot more sense when the few are nothing special and simply organic machines.
 

chaos

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I really don't think it undermines our justice system or the concept of intent. I choose not to kill the bitch in front of me in line at the store. There is no one thing that leads to that choice, it does not arise from the aether of my mind spontaneously. Like everything else that exists that choice is just a chemical reaction, guided by infinite reactions that preceded it stretching back to the big bang or whatever the fuck. That doesn't mean that I could not have chosen to kill that bitch, I could have, maybe I would have given different circumstances that would alter that chemical reaction ever so slightly. And if I chose to do it, the intent was still there, whether or not I have free will ultimately does not affect that.
 

Tuco

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Yes, I believe it exists.
Yes, because even if we cant prove it -- and even if the alternative ends up being proven -- the alternative is terrible.

The only intellectually honest response, if free will doesnt actually exist, is to never hold anyone accountable for their actions. Society cannot function without the belief in free will whether its true or not.

Its also worth noting that there are alternative interpretations for the old research being discussed here. The case against free will isnt closed.
I disagree. If someone's actions are destined by their physical state and environment rather than some higher-plane of existence that determines free will there should be no change in consequence or accountability. It just means that the judgement, punishment and correction is made to change their physical state and environment. The end result is the same.
 

khalid

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Lets look at a concrete example. Column has no free will. He has no choice in shitting up every thread he posts in. The hardware in his brain just makes him spew idiocy and not stop. However, if Tuco were to RRP him everytime he did that, Column's hardware in his brain would modify his behavior.

So society can still function without free will, as long as Tuco does his job.


Anyway, agree with Chaos. Don't got time for this shit.