The Free Will Thread
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Sentagur
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The point is that once a choice is actually made some people are arguing that a different choice was actually possible. The others simply state that specific choice could not have been different given the totality of variables.
A chemical soup that makes your brain in the specific circumstance that made up that exact moment and with the specific inputs was not able to make a different decision.
Cad
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That doesn't really make sense though, how does abstract thought and decision making "just happen" ?
Cad
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I'm not really sure what that even means. Wouldn't the specific circumstance and variables include your thoughts on the matter, since those are part of the chemical makeup? So all thats really saying is that your decisions are non-random, because they actually follow the makeup of your brain and it would be fairly consistent if repeated?
pharmakos
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Only read the three paragraphs quoted from the article. Their argument seems to, from that, boil down to "changing our neurochemistry changes our behavior therefore we don't have free will."? This is black and white thinking and does not preclude limited free will. Obviously we don't have absolute free will or we would all be super heroes.
Sentagur
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Yes but your thoughts on the matter are not random, they are the result of the chemistry in your brain and specific circumstance. I was reading things about this specific topic and the way i understood this is that your decision is made based on some subconscious factors we have no real control over and every conscious thought about it is our brain train to reason and justify a specific decision to ourselves.
Hoss
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Now with what you're describing, we're back to the question of how you can hold anyone responsible for anything they do. No one should be in jail because they had no choice. Let me give you the easy answer to that argument. The people punishing the wrongdoers also have no choice and they must imprison or kill in response to the perceived evil.
I think you're all wet but it's not worth a drawn out argument. That chemical soup you describe certainly influences your decisions but they don't define them.
Jive Turkey
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I've always found it interesting that they don't look closer at alcohol impairment when talking about consciousness. When I'm black out drunk, my consciousness has been completely debilitated. Yet my brain still functions and continues to make decisions outside of my conscious input. Are these decisions void of free will? If we were able to only affect the self-awareness areas of the brain, yet motor skills, etc remained intact, would we act any differently? Perhaps consciousness - and by extension, the illusion of free will - are just a product of memory and of the brain reviewing decisions and processes after the fact. I know that all sounds a bit pot-heady (which I'm not), but it makes a lot of sense.
There's a spooky anecdote I read in a book or article on free will once. I'll see if I can find it. In short, a lady was in the beginning stages of having a stroke in the kitchen with her daughter. They had the exact same short conversation about 3 times in a row. The input of the mother noticing a black truck outside the window would elicit an output, then her brain would seem to 'reset' after a minute or so. She would notice the truck again and it would send her down the same output path. It seemed to expose the way in which our brains really do operate as little computers to outside stimuli in very predictable ways
There's a spooky anecdote I read in a book or article on free will once. I'll see if I can find it. In short, a lady was in the beginning stages of having a stroke in the kitchen with her daughter. They had the exact same short conversation about 3 times in a row. The input of the mother noticing a black truck outside the window would elicit an output, then her brain would seem to 'reset' after a minute or so. She would notice the truck again and it would send her down the same output path. It seemed to expose the way in which our brains really do operate as little computers to outside stimuli in very predictable ways
Jive Turkey
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Cad
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What happens if you can't rationalize/justify that decision to yourself, and you reverse it?
And even so, isn't that just defining words to satisfy someone saying "you" don't have free will. You're still making decisions, it's just more subconscious and you need to train yourself to make better gut decisions. Whether it's your subconscious or not, it's still "you". You are still "free".
pharmakos
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anyone ever experienced a dissociative anesthetic "hole" / k(etamine)-hole? taking the "chemicals affect consciousness" argument the other way -- dissociative drugs can induce full out of body experiences, where your consciousness is seemingly completely disconnected from your body. your consciousness continues on, tho. obviously, this is subjective, but having such an experience sure does put a different spin on one's opinions about the nature of consciousness/reality.
Siddar
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I'm in the free will camp because that is how my belief system has been built. I have no reason to question those beliefs, unless someone can not only show that they're wrong but that there is something to be gained by changing them.
I do find the debate about the topic mildly interesting though.
I do find the debate about the topic mildly interesting though.
Sentagur
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The whole thing is very counter intuitive and very hard to explain. The only way i can think of is to compare it to trickling water down a pane of glass , the water will take a randomly seeming path based on bunch of different variables but its not making conscious decisions which way it should flow. If you clean and dry the same glass panes and try it again the path might be same or different depending on many minuscule things that could have changed. You could say you could force the water down a specific path on that glass pane but we don't have the same control over our brain chemistry brain structure and environment that would allow us to change decisions we make.
Jive Turkey
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"seemingly disconnected" being the important part. It's not like you can go into another room separate from your body and tell me what's in there. There appears to be some function in the brain that seems to place your consciousness just behind your eyes. But through meditation or even just deep thought, you can sometimes slightly skew that feeling to different parts of your body. It's still just a 'feeling' though and says nothing about what or 'where' consciousness is. Or if asking "where" even makes any sense whatsoever
pharmakos
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yup, it is a subjective experience, obviously, but then so is just about everything else we're discussing.
reading through the thread now instead of responding to the article -- chaos seems to have the most rational viewpoint in this whole discussion. "it doesn't matter, and you're dumb if you think no-free-will means we shouldn't lock up murderers."
reading through the thread now instead of responding to the article -- chaos seems to have the most rational viewpoint in this whole discussion. "it doesn't matter, and you're dumb if you think no-free-will means we shouldn't lock up murderers."
Jive Turkey
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Here's a good video on the topic if you can get past the hep cat soundtrack. Sam talks more about the philosophy here though. In the book, he demonstrates lack of free will through simple thought experiments really succinctly. Even if you have a fleeting interest, the book is a great read and is only 100 pages or so
Jive Turkey
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I'd agree with chaos' second point 100%. But I'd argue it does matter because we have everything to gain from learning how our bodies work
Sentagur
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The fact that we lock up killers and punish other crimes makes it a variable(however small) in the huge soup that makes up the mechanism of decision making in everyone.
That is why its valuable. That is also why its important to focus on rehabilitation, the countries that do that seem to have lower recidivism rates than those that don't focus on rehabilitation.
That is why its valuable. That is also why its important to focus on rehabilitation, the countries that do that seem to have lower recidivism rates than those that don't focus on rehabilitation.
pharmakos
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touche. i suppose i'm operating under the assumption that if free will does exist, then it arises from a metaphysical place rather than a physical process. which isn't necessarily true.
i also assume that the existence/non-existence of free will is one of those things that we will never be able to conclusively prove either way. which is another thing i might be wrong about.