The Joe Rogan Experience (JRE)

LiquidDeath

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I'm not addressing his other work, I don't know enough about it, only what he said on Rogan. They talked at length about the issues in these communites, the generation-spanning issues. Shapiro specifically brought up his grandfather and the role model he was, but when Rogan asks "yeah but what if your grandfather was a fuckup" he doesn't really have an answer to that. They talk at length about the harm of broken families, communities without male role models, poverty, on and on, but again, when asked if you were king of the world what would you do Shapiro's first answer was a huge increase to policing. If you're saying "yeah well he said this but meant that" sounds about like me saying "yeah I know they said defund the police but they really mean these reforms" which, even if true, there's no way to know that for people who don't dig into it.

As far as what I believe, no, I don't think anyone should be treated "special", just equal. I think any kind of "reparations" projects you institute need to be income/wealth focused, applicable to everyone not just any particular race. There's no version of this shit getting better than doesn't involve some kind of answer to the generations of poverty, imprisonment, murder, etc etc etc in those communities and the impact of that, and most of that you can't really make up for, but instead it's just being made worse now, continuing the cycle. But yeah man, I do think we need some kind of huge social program in this country that actually addresses these issues on the long term, not on the election cycles, and with compassion and empathy for all involved. I'm sure monkeys are more likely to fly out of my butt, but whatever.

But how? People smarter than us have tried to figure it out. How do you provide assistance to adversely affected groups without making them extra-normal and, thus, violating the true equality we need to foster?

I've thought about this specific issue a lot over many years and I've always landed on Shapiro's answer as well. There is no way to assist historically disadvantaged groups to make up for past discrimination without elevating them above other groups. It is tautological. Eventually you have to accept that the only way we can move forward is to acknowledge that the past was fucked up and the only way to put it behind us is to ensure that everyone is equal going forward and forevermore.
 

BrutulTM

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I've got some chicken and the egg qualms about mental health --> drug abuse or drug abuse --> mental health, but looks up the "homeless industrial complex" - Dr Drew talks about this as well. Homelessness is a new frontier, an untapped goldmine for rent seeking, cronyism, virtue signal bucks and votes (power). People with the actual power to move the ball forward on homelessness in any real way have a negative incentive to do so.

And really, think about drug/alcohol addicts, or people with severe mental health issues that have major family support systems and think how hard it is to get these folks healthy and having a reasonably meaningful life. Even if the State did want to fix this, i'm not sure it's fixable.

Personal i'd push all dollars into figuring out the trappings of how people get into a homeless situation (i'd bet a large majority is substance abuse, leading to homelessness, leading to quick and severe mental health decline). If we could stop the cycle in the abusing substance phase while making it very uncomfortable to transition into that homeless phase, that would help. Unfortunately our socially liberal areas glorify and decriminalize drug use while also providing a multi layered "safety net" almost perfectly designed to keep these people alive and healthy as they mentally decline.

You can't help these people. They don't want help, and they won't take it. There are exceptions of course, but my sister is a social worker and there are just a lot of people who you either just leave on the street or do what they did in the old days and put them in a straight jacket in a padded cage until you can drug them into oblivion. That was judged to be inhumane so welcome to pitching a tent under the bridge.

I have my doubts that there's anything that will help historically disadvantaged communities either. I'd be in favor of anything that worked, but it seems like money for nothing just makes the problem worse. You don't see communities that are on welfare getting better. People can't live on handouts and have any kind of motivation or self respect. While there's a pretty good argument that they didn't get themselves into that situation, I suspect they are the only ones that can get themselves out of it. Not saying it's easy, but you can't help someone that's not committed to helping themselves.
 
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chaos

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But how? People smarter than us have tried to figure it out. How do you provide assistance to adversely affected groups without making them extra-normal and, thus, violating the true equality we need to foster?

I've thought about this specific issue a lot over many years and I've always landed on Shapiro's answer as well. There is no way to assist historically disadvantaged groups to make up for past discrimination without elevating them above other groups. It is tautological. Eventually you have to accept that the only way we can move forward is to acknowledge that the past was fucked up and the only way to put it behind us is to ensure that everyone is equal going forward and forevermore.
Yeah but that's been the MO for like the past 40+ years. It's clearly not working. The same problems persist. Even if what Shapiro said is true and institutional racism is solved, those problems remain and it's just a cycle pumping poor people into prison or early graves from drugs and bullshit. Which, we're framing this in terms of race because that's the conversation, but poor white people are in exactly this same situation in many areas.

You're never going to atone for any past sins, and we don't even have to, we didn't do that shit. But I don't agree that it's inevitable that you're creating some disparity between groups.We all gain from increased opportunity, even if we aren't the direct recipients of it. If you're restricting opportunity to racial groups, yeah, that doesn't work. Just lift all the fucking boats.
 
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iannis

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The return on investment is horribly low. Social workers who aren't completely burnt out by the overwhelming rate of failure are a special sort.

It's difficult to predict which people are worth investment, but those people do exist. And it's not just a person, it's a time too. You've got to get the right person in the right moment. So you cast a wide expensive net in order to catch a single fish.

Or you do what we've done for the majority of our history. You just have a war every so often and throw your poors at someone elses poors. Whoever lives becomes slightly less poor and probably either comes back suicidal which means they won't be a problem for very long or they come back slightly richer with a new found resolve to never go back to being as poor as they were. Doesn't seem like such a great plan, really. Technically it works.
 

Loser Araysar

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I thought Shapiro was exactly what I expected when I saw Shapiro was on there. I didn't watch the whole thing, though. It always disappoints me, the right wing reaction in this country to civil rights. I wish we had more parties. Particularly when they spent like 20 minutes discussing the history of civil rights and slavery, police brutality, jim crow, etc and the impact on current day, then when he asks Shapiro what he would do if he were Pres, his first answer is to crack down with police. Geez, if only previous presidents had thought about widespread incarceration in poverty stricken neighborhoods to drive down crime rates. He addresses the problem, he names off several possible (or contributing) causes, then is like "But we should make things way worse".

I know exactly the part that you're referring to and thats a complete mischaracerization of what Shapiro said.
 
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a_skeleton_06

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Yeah, Shapiro's point wasn't to crack black skulls. It was that you can't foster an environment to get better with everyone smoking crack and robbing.
 
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Loser Araysar

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He said something to the effect of "urban areas are now a complete warzone and you cant do anything until you restore order, so you need to flood it with police"

He wasn't arguing for some decades-long police repression initiative to keep the knee on the poor black man's neck. What he was saying is that when cars are literally burning on the streets and there are riots every day, you literally cant solve ANYTHING. Basic public safety has to be addressed before anything else can be.

I went back and found the timestamp where he talks exactly about this at the 38 minute mark

 

Armadon

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Post "What if aliens control their guns with their booty holes" Malone, he's the rapper with the shit on his face. No, the white one. No, the other one.

I'm an hour into this, apparently 4 fucking hour podcast. I'm right at the part where Joe Rogan and Post Malone, high on mushrooms watching Necrogoblikon videos on youtube, postulate that the lead singer might be a real goblin, or an alien, or both. So it's pretty good.
This is a must listen to episode only if you're fucked up. Tried watching this morning and it was just like this is dumb. Now I'm obliterated and I can't stop laughing.
 

chaos

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He said something to the effect of "urban areas are now a complete warzone and you cant do anything until you restore order, so you need to flood it with police"

He wasn't arguing for some decades-long police repression initiative to keep the knee on the poor black man's neck. What he was saying is that when cars are literally burning on the streets and there are riots every day, you literally cant solve ANYTHING. Basic public safety has to be addressed before anything else can be.

I went back and found the timestamp where he talks exactly about this at the 38 minute mark

Yeah I don't think I mischaracterized what he said, and I'm not trying to. I don't hate Shapiro or anything. In that clip he says it pretty plainly "well you have to load the place with police, until the crime stops. Once you stop crime..."

"once you stop crime.." I get that he's speaking a little hyperbolically here, I understand what he probably means, but that isn't what he said. He and Joe just talked for a while, and they agreed on a lot about what is causing these issues. The cops are already overwhelmingly deployed in these areas, and they aren't making any of these societal problems better, only worse.

And the problem I had with that is, that's his step 1. If we elected him president in 2024, and he pushed his plan, and sent thousands of police into these neighborhoods, he would make every single issue he just talked about worse. More broken families, more poverty, fewer role models, just continuing a cycle. If he wants to get on board the defund the police movement and reallocate money/resources to other services within these areas, I'm sure that will be a surprise.
 

Loser Araysar

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The cops are already overwhelmingly deployed in these areas, and they aren't making any of these societal problems better, only worse.

That's absolutely untrue though. You can see that in last 2 months with police being defanged and pulled back. Crime and mayhem immediately filled the void and rates of murders, assaults and property crimes skyrocketed in NYC, Chicago and elsewhere that tried to minimize police.
 
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chaos

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This is a must listen to episode only if you're fucked up. Tried watching this morning and it was just like this is dumb. Now I'm obliterated and I can't stop laughing.
at about an hour in when Joe sees the picture of that jacked alligator and he panics, I was crying laughing, that shit is hilarious. Post Malone, best episode of 2020.
 

chaos

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That's absolutely untrue though. You can see that in last 2 months with police being defanged and pulled back. Crime and mayhem immediately filled the void and rates of murders, assaults and property crimes skyrocketed in NYC, Chicago and elsewhere that tried to minimize police.
Dude this isn't a 2 month old problem. Cops have been concentrated in these neighborhoods for decades. We're locking up all the #1 males on drug charges on one hand, then decrying the lack of nuclear family units in the black community and all the impact from that on the other hand. Create and foster an adversarial relationship between police and citizens, then ask citizens to accept even more police into their neighborhoods to "solve crime". It just sounds like more of the same.
 
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Loser Araysar

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Dude this isn't a 2 month old problem. Cops have been concentrated in these neighborhoods for decades. We're locking up all the #1 males on drug charges on one hand, then decrying the lack of nuclear family units in the black community and all the impact from that on the other hand. Create and foster an adversarial relationship between police and citizens, then ask citizens to accept even more police into their neighborhoods to "solve crime". It just sounds like more of the same.

ROFL, unreal. People are committing crime and fighting cops

"The police are fostering an adversarial relationship"

This is just IOOTI 2.0
 
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chaos

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I didn't say that, you're twisting my words so you can do a bit. The good news is, whichever party wins in November is likely to do exactly the same thing, which will mirror exactly what they've always done, and solve nothing. So we have another 150 years of this shit to look forward to.
 
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Loser Araysar

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If flooding bad neighborhoods with cops is a bad thing that solves nothing, then would removing cops from these neighborhoods be a good thing?
 

chaos

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Yeah man, it turns out that you can't solve complex social problems in a pithy one-liner. Who would have thought?
 

Loser Araysar

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Yeah man, it turns out that you can't solve complex social problems in a pithy one-liner. Who would have thought?

Yeah you can.

Shapiro gave you the basic blueprint.

You have a problem with the plan though because you think its more important for people to be allowed to commit crimes rather than be held accountable for their actions and be accountable to their families. Someone got busted for selling drugs? Lets make drug dealing legal so that we dont have to "break up families".

If you think more cops = bad and less cops = bad, the problem isnt the solution. The problem is you.