The Man in the High Castle

Oatlord_sl · Nov 21, 2015

Interesting ending. I think I'll have to actually read the book on this one.

Abefroman · Nov 22, 2015

This was fantastic.

Joeboo · Nov 23, 2015

Powered through this whole season this weekend...great show but it left me with so many questions

I kinda had the feeling from the start that we were dealing with an alternate reality in which maybe the true reality existed at some level since the "true" movie reels kept showing up, and we are dealing with a sci-fi writer after all. But we saw a third tape right there at the end with either another "alternate" reality, or a vision of the future in the current reality with a bomb dropping on San Fran and the main characters being involved. That one was odd, I still don't know if we're purely dealing with 2 different realities, or more than 2.

Also, the Trade Minister at the end closing his eyes and then opening them to appear in the "real" reality where America won the war. Are we going to be going down the sci-fi route of a person(or people) who can travel between parallel universes/realities, or is that purely just some sort of dream state(or he possibly killed himself and "awoke" in this world). I have no idea which direction that is going to go.

And one last thing...so "The Man in the High Castle" is Hitler himself? Or did Hitler have all of those films because his Nazis had intercepted that many, and there's still another party out there collecting them somewhere?

Really like the show. So many gray areas, not much is black & white and easy to figure out. People who you think are evil at the start aren't necessarily so by the end. Everyone has a pretty good reason for what they are doing, whether it's selfish, unselfish, their idea of helping others or their nation, etc. Hell, even

Hitler himself maybe isn't the ultimate evil that you would expect, he fleshed out the usurpers within the Nazi party mainly to prevent a Germany-Japan war, Hitler wants to ultimately keep the peace

Crazy stuff...I'm assuming they're planning a 2nd season? Surely that wasn't a one-off and that was the ending?

Ukerric · Nov 23, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
Crazy stuff...I'm assuming they're planning a 2nd season? Surely that wasn't a one-off and that was the ending?

It's TV. If it's succesful, it will have a sequel, even though the book itself basically covers that season 1 and Dick never wrote a sequel.

Frenzied Wombat · Nov 23, 2015

I guess I'm the only one that found this underwhelming and mediocre? I watched the whole season this weekend, and it was alright, but for the most part I just kept seeing squandered potential. Maybe they were restricted by source material (I haven't read the book), but with such an amazing premise there were all sorts of possibilities concerning backstory, lore, and history that weren't exploited. Also, the scope of the story just felt very narrow considering the grand theme, focusing on a few uninteresting characters. The only ones I found interesting were Rudolph and Fuhrer John. The "films" as a plot device was certainly interesting, but nothing really develops around their value/origin until the last episode. The "resistance" isn't really anything rooting for, because it literally just feels like it's comprised of a few nobodies whose only job is to transport/find films..

Some things that drove me nuts.. Not sure if these were plot holes or if I just missed something:

- Why was the little worm friend that works in the metal factory so willing to sacrifice his own money, then eventually his life, to cover for the guy with the glasses that made the gun??
- Lol at how many times they "escaped through the back door". Obviously none of the bad guys in this movie know about back doors.
- Fuhrer John take his captain or whatever to the roof, and the dude never realizes he's about to get shoved off the edge??
- If Hitler knew Rudolph was coming to kill him, why the fuck leave his guns lying around loaded???

Joeboo · Nov 23, 2015

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
I guess I'm the only one that found this underwhelming and mediocre? I watched the whole season this weekend, and it was alright, but for the most part I just kept seeing squandered potential. Maybe they were restricted by source material (I haven't read the book), but with such an amazing premise there were all sorts of possibilities concerning backstory, lore, and history that weren't exploited. Also, the scope of the story just felt very narrow considering the grand theme, focusing on a few uninteresting characters. The only ones I found interesting were Rudolph and Fuhrer John. The "films" as a plot device was certainly interesting, but nothing really develops around their value/origin until the last episode. The "resistance" isn't really anything rooting for, because it literally just feels like it's comprised of a few nobodies whose only job is to transport/find films..

Some things that drove me nuts.. Not sure if these were plot holes or if I just missed something:

- Why was the little worm friend that works in the metal factory so willing to sacrifice his own money, then eventually his life, to cover for the guy with the glasses that made the gun??
- Lol at how many times they "escaped through the back door". Obviously none of the bad guys in this movie know about back doors.
- Fuhrer John take his captain or whatever to the roof, and the dude never realizes he's about to get shoved off the edge??
- If Hitler knew Rudolph was coming to kill him, why the fuck leave his guns lying around loaded???

As far as a couple of your points

I think Hitler left his guns loaded because he's basically a benevolent dictator who seems himself as invincible, and also someone who is persuasive enough that he can talk a man out of assassinating him, and into killing himself. Can you imagine how big Hitlers ego would be if he had won the war and captured America? He'd feel like an invincible god. He's used to people dying for him daily, he has no sense of mortality whatsoever, I'd imagine.

And as far as the uberwhateverfurer John pushing that guy off the roof, it was a little hokey the way it went down but I have a feeling the Nazi party is very used to people dying under suspicious circumstances and they just all kinda turn a blind eye, as opposed to speaking up against a superior officer and possibly ending up the same way. Seems like a ton of backstabbing and in-fighting within the Nazi party as a whole

My only real gripe with the show is that I want more back story/lore of how WW2 ended up. There are multiple mentions of the Nazis dropping an H-bomb on Washington DC, and a large-scale invasion of the US with several US veterans referring to the "Battle of Virginia Beach" like it's the Battle of Normandy or something.

Also, I thought of one more question(regarding the Japanese)

We see at one point that the Trade Ministers aid has severe burns on his arms, he has long sleeves on you you only see a bit but it kinda seems like they might be pretty widespread. We then find out in a later episode that he is from Nagasaki, but in this reality no A-bomb never dropped on Nagasaki. Is he possibly from the "real" reality where it did drop? Can the Japanese travel between the two realities?

Also

What is this Heisenburg Device that the German spy gave the Japanese science minister? It's made out to sound like a weapon of some sort, a technology that gives the Nazis a dominance over everyone else. But is it a weapon, or is it something more like a time machine? Isn't the transporters in Star Trek called a Heisenburg somethingorother?

Frenzied Wombat · Nov 23, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
As far as a couple of your points

I think Hitler left his guns loaded because he's basically a benevolent dictator who seems himself as invincible, and also someone who is persuasive enough that he can talk a man out of assassinating him, and into killing himself. Can you imagine how big Hitlers ego would be if he had won the war and captured America? He'd feel like an invincible god. He's used to people dying for him daily, he has no sense of mortality whatsoever, I'd imagine.

And as far as the uberwhateverfurer John pushing that guy off the roof, it was a little hokey the way it went down but I have a feeling the Nazi party is very used to people dying under suspicious circumstances and they just all kinda turn a blind eye, as opposed to speaking up against a superior officer and possibly ending up the same way. Seems like a ton of backstabbing and in-fighting within the Nazi party as a whole

Those are pretty big assumptions, especially when they don't paint it into the story itself. If you know someone is coming to kill you with your own guns, would you leave them loaded? I get that Hitler was a narcissist, but without justifying it within the story itself, it just came off as illogical and a big plot hole.

As for Fuhrer John, I don't have issue with him trying to make it look like a suicide, my issue is that the victim didn't see it coming when it was entirely obvious. Would you be standing at the ledge during that line of questioning and accusations? The whole thing seemed contrived and anti-climactic. Same thing with that scene at the bridge where the "elite agent" is trying to shove the girl off the bridge. The whole struggle seemed "fake", and the charcoal portrait that's found by the bountey hunter a few days later-- are we supposed to believe that the piece of paper hadn't been blown miles away over the course of a day or two"?

Frenzied Wombat · Nov 23, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
As far as a couple of your points

I think Hitler left his guns loaded because he's basically a benevolent dictator who seems himself as invincible, and also someone who is persuasive enough that he can talk a man out of assassinating him, and into killing himself. Can you imagine how big Hitlers ego would be if he had won the war and captured America? He'd feel like an invincible god. He's used to people dying for him daily, he has no sense of mortality whatsoever, I'd imagine.

And as far as the uberwhateverfurer John pushing that guy off the roof, it was a little hokey the way it went down but I have a feeling the Nazi party is very used to people dying under suspicious circumstances and they just all kinda turn a blind eye, as opposed to speaking up against a superior officer and possibly ending up the same way. Seems like a ton of backstabbing and in-fighting within the Nazi party as a whole

My only real gripe with the show is that I want more back story/lore of how WW2 ended up. There are multiple mentions of the Nazis dropping an H-bomb on Washington DC, and a large-scale invasion of the US with several US veterans referring to the "Battle of Virginia Beach" like it's the Battle of Normandy or something.

Also, I thought of one more question(regarding the Japanese)

We see at one point that the Trade Ministers aid has severe burns on his arms, he has long sleeves on you you only see a bit but it kinda seems like they might be pretty widespread. We then find out in a later episode that he is from Nagasaki, but in this reality no A-bomb never dropped on Nagasaki. Is he possibly from the "real" reality where it did drop? Can the Japanese travel between the two realities?

Also

What is this Heisenburg Device that the German spy gave the Japanese science minister? It's made out to sound like a weapon of some sort, a technology that gives the Nazis a dominance over everyone else. But is it a weapon, or is it something more like a time machine? Isn't the transporters in Star Trek called a Heisenburg somethingorother?

The Heisenberg device is basically the H-bomb tech. We can only assume in this alternate universe that it wasn't Oppenheimer that developed the H bomb, it was Heisenberg in Germany

Joeboo · Nov 23, 2015

Makes sense.

Its just that in most other works of fiction, "Heisenburg" seems to be related to teleportation & time travel related things. A lot of theorycrafting about time travel always brings up the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle, which generally is the principle that most people reference to debunk the possibility of space/time travel. But maybe in this universe instead of Werner Heisenburg coming up with the principle that basically debunks the physics of time travel, he invents it? Who knows. Maybe I'm thinking too much about this and it is just the Hydrogen Bomb.

Frenzied Wombat · Nov 23, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
Makes sense.

Its just that in most other works of fiction, "Heisenburg" seems to be related to teleportation & time travel related things. A lot of theorycrafting about time travel always brings up the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle, which generally is the principle that most people reference to debunk the possibility of space/time travel. But maybe in this universe instead of Werner Heisenburg coming up with the principle that basically debunks the physics of time travel, he invents it? Who knows. Maybe I'm thinking too much about this and it is just the Hydrogen Bomb.

Your logic is valid because that was Heisenberg's invention. I was confused as well until the trade minister discusses the parity that would be created by leaking the tech. That's kind of what I meant by them failing to discuss lore, history, or backstory. A lot of things are confusing or don't make sense until much later because they don't fill in the historical blanks of how the world ended up the way it is, beyond the very simple "Nazis won the war and dropped an H bomb on Washington". What/how led up to that is mostly a mystery, even by the end of the season. It's a cheap way to create confusion and suspense at the expense of what could have been some really cool historical footage and narratives.

Joeboo · Nov 23, 2015

We already need a prequel season after just 1 normal season, lol

It could be epic. 1945-1950 or so, everything that happened in the new history line with WW2 not ending until like 1948 or whatever when the Nazis took America, Stalin was killed, Nazis taking the African continent, etc.

The way people talk in the show, South America is really the only place left on earth that isn't under Japan/Nazi rule

Abefroman · Nov 23, 2015

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
The Heisenberg device is basically the H-bomb tech. We can only assume in this alternate universe that it wasn't Oppenheimer that developed the H bomb, it was Heisenberg in Germany

Frenzied Wombat · Nov 23, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
We already need a prequel season after just 1 normal season, lol

It could be epic. 1945-1950 or so, everything that happened in the new history line with WW2 not ending until like 1948 or whatever when the Nazis took America, Stalin was killed, Nazis taking the African continent, etc.

The way people talk in the show, South America is really the only place left on earth that isn't under Japan/Nazi rule

Yeah, that's what I felt was seriously missing.. I was constantly hungering for backstory-- even more so when they'd drop references to enslaving Africa and killing Stalin. So much potential for some really cool scenes and/or flashbacks, but instead it was squandered on some feeble "resistance" and three very boring main characters (Joe, glasses boyfriend, and the girl).

I mean I guess it could be coming in season 2, but imho it was far more suited to the first season. My assumption is they didn't have the budget to do it (reliving war scenes or Africa based sets) because except for some CGI scenes of landscape and buildings, the sets themselves were really small.

Slaythe · Nov 23, 2015

I'm about half way through, so still a bit to go, but...

while I agree with you guys completely, that I'm constantly wanting more and more of the lore, I think the little hints at stuff is a really clever way to reveal the history of the world, rather than shoving exposition down our throats. The new Mad Max did this the best, with you walking away understanding completely the social structure of that world without ever actually having it be spoken to you.

Overall I think it's a positive in comparison to a lot of recent media where it seems like we get more of an "Americans are dumb" mindset for the writing. I definitely crave more though.

Picasso3 · Nov 23, 2015

The only thing this ending was missing was murph

uncognito · Nov 24, 2015

Just finished this show. thought it was excellent all around.

I was a little disappointed when they saw Frank in the film. I prefer the idea of them just being ordinary people randomly involved in something greater. but it seems this was 'fate' or someone maybe pulling strings to get them involved.

Minor gripe. still loved the show. looking forward to next season someday

Did she blow the guy to get that job?

hodj · Nov 24, 2015

Just watched the pilot.

Good shit. Going to try and cram the whole season this holiday.

Intrinsic · Nov 26, 2015

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
Your logic is valid because that was Heisenberg's invention. I was confused as well until the trade minister discusses the parity that would be created by leaking the tech. That's kind of what I meant by them failing to discuss lore, history, or backstory. A lot of things are confusing or don't make sense until much later because they don't fill in the historical blanks of how the world ended up the way it is, beyond the very simple "Nazis won the war and dropped an H bomb on Washington". What/how led up to that is mostly a mystery, even by the end of the season. It's a cheap way to create confusion and suspense at the expense of what could have been some really cool historical footage and narratives.

We just finished the season too and I don't know how to respond to multiple spoilers in line and shit, so I'll just use this as a jumping off point... (having never read the source material)

Hitler seemed to definitely be the Man in the High Castle. We saw his shelf of collected films that I assume the 'resistance' had been funneling to him the whole time. Which goes back to his narcissism and why he'd leave the gun loaded when Wegener came in to kill him. He believes he's already seen the possible futures and what would happen.

Also we saw Obergruppenfuhrer Smith write a letter to Mein Fuhrer which we didn't see. And time was always kind of a jumbled mess in this show with people going from Canon City to San Fransisco, San Fransisco to New York, or to Berlin in single cuts... so maybe that letter outlined his concerns about Oberstgruppenfuhrer and Wegener to give Hitler the leg up.

Those two combined make enough sense to me.

I also think the Heisenberg device is definitely the uncertainty device or camera or whatever foil they want to throw out. We know Trade Minister Tagomi's assistant was from Nagasaki and there wasn't an overt reference to a bomb being dropped. Our idea of an 'H-bomb' was likely never created in this timeline which led to the Axis winning the war. Whatever Heisenberg device supplanted that and allowed Hitler to win WWII and begin this new Reich.

Tagomi's place in it all is stranger especially given the end. We know he has a belief in mysticism and 'the Oracle' / his sticks. Those drove his motivations to work with Julianna and Wegener to move towards some goal. To give the Japanese access to the Heisenberg Device? And end this stalemate? But Kido said they didn't want that, or at least to be equals....

You don't really need the how's and why's or when's about the backstory. The story is that they won WWII and here we are. The Germans and Japanese were allies of convenience now in a pseudo cold war (sorry Politics Thread), the Americans are stuck in the middle, and there's these films and a 'resistance.'

The whole things seemed like the plot to Command and Conquer: Red Alert. Wasn't that the one where Hitler escaped through the thing and NOD took over, etc...

Frank Frink was a shit fuck of a character though. Guy had literally zero redeeming qualities. First two (?) episodes were like, 'Damn sorry for this guy.' But after that it was 7 episodes of a total whine fest and him being pissed. YOU DIDN'T MAKE THE BUS JULIANNA! Sorry I got abducted by the Yakuza and they were goin---- BUT YOU PROMISED!!! get fucked you fag.

She totally blew that guy for the job though.

Vanderhoof · Nov 26, 2015

I assumed it was a fancy, white gloved handy.

The I Ching was an important element of the book (PKD said he used it to determine character's choices while writing the novel). Maybe the films are a modern I Ching and help guide the viewers choices.

Jimbolini · Nov 27, 2015

Just finished..interesting idea for sure.

I can see why this can be confusing...could use a little more backstory I guess.

But all in all...good show.

Edit: Russell Sewell who played Obergruppenf?hrer Smith looked very much like Robert Knepper who played T-Bag on Prison Break.

(At least to me..until my wife pointed out it was different actor.)

The Man in the High Castle

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