Kirun
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The Trayvon Trial
- Thread starter Chukzombi
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@Tanoomba and Duppin: I understand your line of thought but theres a couple issues with it...
1) Whats the line for justifiably confronting someone? I honestly am not certain of this question. In this case Florida does allow citizens arrest. You can chase bank robber or a purse snatcher in Florida as a private citizen. You can even detain people as a private citizen in Florida if you have eye witnesses*. I don't know that I'd condemn Zimmerman for following someone acting strange in a neighborhood that was having a rash of home break-ins. It doesn't help he was observed walking between and behind houses. Yes that is suspicious and yes I've openly confronted people doing that around my house while armed in RL.
2) People get arrested in bar fights all the time for assault because someone mouthed off to them. At the end of the day, this situation isn't very different minus the shooting. You don't have the right to attack someone because they're "creepy", "racist", "annoying", or any other adjective outside of "Threatening". It is possible Zimmerman confronted Travyon Martin and threatened him with his life to make Martin's actions self defense, but unlikely. Either Martin would have had to knowingly attack someone with a gun, or I have to believe Zimmerman threatened Martin's life without brandishing the gun. While the latter isn't impossible its really hard to believe. The former means Zimmerman deliberately provoked the fight and killed Travyon Martin for no reason. There hasn't been a shred of evidence thats the case. "Racism" isn't enough to show that beyond a reasonable doubt.
What I think happened: Zimmerman watched/followed Travyon Martin and pissed him off. Zimmerman confronted him about what he was doing walking between houses and Martin jumped him not knowing Zimmerman was armed.
*http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...and-run-driver
1) Whats the line for justifiably confronting someone? I honestly am not certain of this question. In this case Florida does allow citizens arrest. You can chase bank robber or a purse snatcher in Florida as a private citizen. You can even detain people as a private citizen in Florida if you have eye witnesses*. I don't know that I'd condemn Zimmerman for following someone acting strange in a neighborhood that was having a rash of home break-ins. It doesn't help he was observed walking between and behind houses. Yes that is suspicious and yes I've openly confronted people doing that around my house while armed in RL.
2) People get arrested in bar fights all the time for assault because someone mouthed off to them. At the end of the day, this situation isn't very different minus the shooting. You don't have the right to attack someone because they're "creepy", "racist", "annoying", or any other adjective outside of "Threatening". It is possible Zimmerman confronted Travyon Martin and threatened him with his life to make Martin's actions self defense, but unlikely. Either Martin would have had to knowingly attack someone with a gun, or I have to believe Zimmerman threatened Martin's life without brandishing the gun. While the latter isn't impossible its really hard to believe. The former means Zimmerman deliberately provoked the fight and killed Travyon Martin for no reason. There hasn't been a shred of evidence thats the case. "Racism" isn't enough to show that beyond a reasonable doubt.
What I think happened: Zimmerman watched/followed Travyon Martin and pissed him off. Zimmerman confronted him about what he was doing walking between houses and Martin jumped him not knowing Zimmerman was armed.
*http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...and-run-driver
Chukzombi
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I believe the only other wounds were bruises on trayvons knuckles. Oh and duppin you need to troll harder or join lumi in the tinfoil hat club. If there was any history that zimmerman was harrassing other blacks, dont you think they would be on the stand giving testimony instead of Precious with her court nails and inability to read cursive?
Zodiac
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TrollfaceDeux
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TrollfaceDeux
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Big Phoenix
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I like how one American Inventor, has the smarts to realize zimmerman isnt "white" by our standards and calls out the DREAMERS! i dont think the blacks have come far enough since slavery to take on the whites and the DREAMERS.
Oh and damn, i hope zimmerman walks so i can get me a new TV!
Anyway, Someone in the Political thread asked why this had become such a big deal and as someone who lives in Florida (Tampa Bay area), I'll try and add what information I can about the background issues going on in Florida at the time, which seemed to push this issue bigger than it might have been.
Stand Your Ground
Even before all this happened, there had been issues over the SYG law in the news. There had been some shootings where people had claimed SYG which seemed the stretch or bend the law a bit, which had people already on edge over it being used so widely. Most notably an older man had gone to a neighboring playground to yell at some kids about skateboarding and was confronted by a younger man who was there with his daughter, words were exchanged, things escalated and the older man shot and killed the younger man; then went on to claim self defense ( Many people were angry that he had instigated the argument then went for the gun soon as things didn't go his way, rather than try to diffuse the situation). I'm not sure if it happened before or after the Trayvon shooting, but one of the major Florida papers had done a study where they showed that the SYG law was used for all sorts of questionable defenses, even including drug dealers shooting their buyers after things went down and then claimed SYG.
Trayvon Shooting
I don't live in the Orlando area where it happened, so I can't say I have all the details, but the way things played out as news of the shooting came out didn't help matters at all. Initial reports (which i was not able to verify so take it with a grain of salt) portrayed police showing up, doing a cursory report and letting Zimmerman go on his merry way. Then (and again, things moved so fast I'm not sure it was ever verified) it was reported that the family was not even notified of his death until 1 or 2 days later when they called to report him missing and were then informed of his death. Which led many to question just how much the police investigated and whether they realized after the fact that they had badly fucked up and were trying to CYA when the family found out what happened.
So now you have a story forming of police fucking up yet another investigation, a young man shot for questionable reasons, the 911 quotes which brought the spectre of racial profiling into things. Then naturally, people jumped on Zimmerman would clearly claim SYG and self defense and things just spiraled out of control.
Honestly, neither Trayvon nor Zimmerman were innocent in this and unfortunately, while many people simply want the truth, there is no way we will ever get that from this trial. The defense wants him acquitted, the prosecution wants him convicted, the truth falls way behind either of those things.
Stand Your Ground
Even before all this happened, there had been issues over the SYG law in the news. There had been some shootings where people had claimed SYG which seemed the stretch or bend the law a bit, which had people already on edge over it being used so widely. Most notably an older man had gone to a neighboring playground to yell at some kids about skateboarding and was confronted by a younger man who was there with his daughter, words were exchanged, things escalated and the older man shot and killed the younger man; then went on to claim self defense ( Many people were angry that he had instigated the argument then went for the gun soon as things didn't go his way, rather than try to diffuse the situation). I'm not sure if it happened before or after the Trayvon shooting, but one of the major Florida papers had done a study where they showed that the SYG law was used for all sorts of questionable defenses, even including drug dealers shooting their buyers after things went down and then claimed SYG.
Trayvon Shooting
I don't live in the Orlando area where it happened, so I can't say I have all the details, but the way things played out as news of the shooting came out didn't help matters at all. Initial reports (which i was not able to verify so take it with a grain of salt) portrayed police showing up, doing a cursory report and letting Zimmerman go on his merry way. Then (and again, things moved so fast I'm not sure it was ever verified) it was reported that the family was not even notified of his death until 1 or 2 days later when they called to report him missing and were then informed of his death. Which led many to question just how much the police investigated and whether they realized after the fact that they had badly fucked up and were trying to CYA when the family found out what happened.
So now you have a story forming of police fucking up yet another investigation, a young man shot for questionable reasons, the 911 quotes which brought the spectre of racial profiling into things. Then naturally, people jumped on Zimmerman would clearly claim SYG and self defense and things just spiraled out of control.
Honestly, neither Trayvon nor Zimmerman were innocent in this and unfortunately, while many people simply want the truth, there is no way we will ever get that from this trial. The defense wants him acquitted, the prosecution wants him convicted, the truth falls way behind either of those things.
ZyyzYzzy
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Having grown up in a very nice part of CT, I've seen the cops called on a black man walking through neighborhoods multiple times.
TrollfaceDeux
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Selix
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Good post except assuming Trayvon was guilty of anything is just as bad as assuming Zimmerman is a mass murderer. He was walking home with a bottle of tea and skittles.
I'm more then willing to grant that there isn't enough evidence to convict Zimmerman of murder but there does need to be something in the law that encourages armed people to avoid situations where they might feel the need to defend their selves by killing someone else. Not because I have anything against gun owners but because it creates a loop hole where drug dealers, murderers, and criminals can legitimately kill anyone who they feel endangers them and claim legal self defense.
Normally this would be a slippery slope but it's already happening.
This isn't just in reference to SYG this is just in general.
What the hell i thought you were helping me lift that new TV... to our apartment.. the fuck is going on here.
Vaclav
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There's a world of difference between calling the cops and letting them deal with it (as the 911 operator suggestion stated) and doing it yourself after calling them.
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