This thread is already derailed. Spanish train derails, kills 78

iannis

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I meant the system as a whole. Everything from slow local transit to high speed transcontinental passenger trains to freight run on the same lines. It's not "simple" to automate that entire system. I'm sure this incident will be a big motivator to do more in that regard, certainly.
It wouldn't be. But the tracks are an unchanging fact.

It seems like it wouldn't be that much work, as in less than 5000 gazillion dollars, to have onboard systems with the maps laid in and regulation of individual components in the system. "Curve coming up, momentum is a bitch, we need to slow this train down starting now, fuck what our suicidal engineer says" sorts of things.

But maybe they already do that much? You don't hear too much about trains derailing around turns because they were going too fast.
 

Tuco

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I meant the system as a whole. Everything from slow local transit to high speed transcontinental passenger trains to freight run on the same lines. It's not "simple" to automate that entire system. I'm sure this incident will be a big motivator to do more in that regard, certainly.
Note that I said that rail based systems have a simplicity not found in air/sea/onhighway travel, not that rail systems are simple.
 

BrutulTM

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Fair enough. Probably shouldn't have worded that the way I did. It just seems like something we aren't making forward progress on even though it would be valuable. We have this gigantic country with all this empty space, you'd think trains would be rather advanced and popular. In fact, the country was kind of built on them in some ways and then we all bought a car and ignored them. Like some kind of grand plan or conspiracy...

*is killed by oil and car entrepreneurs*
Trains only make sense in densely populated areas like Japan and parts of Europe. Each train needs to carry literally thousands of people a day to come close to breaking even. BART, the light rail system in the San Francisco Bay area is a great example. It's one of the best light rail systems in the country, carries nearly 400,000 passengers a day on weekdays, and only has 100 miles of track to maintain. It loses like $300 Million a year even though the tickets are $6-$9 if you are going very far.

Now look at high speed rail, which is more expensive to maintain, and think about going from Albuquerque to Phoenix with a couple hundred riders a day and think of the colossal money sink it would be. On top of that, not everyone wants to go at the same time. Planes are far more flexible as far as times and the fact that they only need to carry 30-60 people to justify the trip. People get really romantic about the idea of trains, but it only makes sense financially when each train can carry literally tens of thousands of people per day and that only happens in densely populated countries and not in places with wide open spaces between cities like the US.
 

BrutulTM

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I would imagine it's difficult to fully automate those systems, given their complexity. Rail systems in Europe are anything but simple, as Tuco claimed.
Nonsense. Google has cars that can drive safely on streets and highways without a driver with traffic lights, thousands of other drivers, dogs and deer and pedestrians etc. Trains are infinitely less complicated than that. The problem is that railroads are old ass companies with entrenched bureaucracies and engineering companies that they have used for so long that they don't realize that they suck. I worked for such a company (for the government, not the railroads) and I remember becoming demoralized when I found an ipod nano smashed on the street while I was riding my bike. The circuit board in that thing probably cost $75 to make and if our company had even been capable of building a board like that (we weren't) it would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and taken literally years to do. Of course there are inherent issues with things like this vs. a company with the volume that Apple has, but there is also decades of entrenched inefficiencies and excuses. The system Lemeran is talking about sounds just like something we would have done for the Department of Energy back in the day.
 

Eomer

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Here's some more info on the speed controls and limited automation on that particular line:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UfqmKqzKHVY

Why did Francisco Jos? Garz?n, a train driver with 30 years' experience, hit a bend at 190 kilometres per hour when the speed limit was 80 km/h? Did he ignore the automated warnings? Or did his train's alert system fail at a critical time?

An inquiry is under way into the derailing of the packed train, which killed 79 people in Santiago de Compostela, north-west Spain on 24 July. Garz?n has admitted to "confusion" over the train's speed and, though freed on bail, is facing the prospect of 79 charges of negligent homicide.

One focus of the investigation will be the fact that the crash took place at a point where one safety system hands over to another - from one that controls the train's speed to one that does not. On high-speed sections, the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) intervenes wirelessly to ensure a train slows down if alerts are ignored.

Crucially, ERTMS cuts in if its alerts are ignored. It does so using GSM-R - a robust railway version of the GSM standard used by cellphones to communicate with the cell towers.

"ERTMS has all sorts of measures that prevent trains going over speed and will eventually be fitted over the whole route from Santiago to Madrid," says Roger Kemp, a safety-critical systems engineer specialising in railway technology at Lancaster University, UK. "But it is not a finished project."

This means that, 4 kilometres from Santiago de Compostela, on a slower, bendier section of track that snakes through the town, ERTMS has not yet been fitted. Instead, an older Spanish-developed system called ASFA advises the driver of the necessary safe speeds. But ASFA can only intervene if the driver does not respond.

"The driver only has to acknowledge that they have seen the speed advisory by pushing a button - otherwise the system will apply the brakes - but you don't have to comply with that speed under ASFA," says Kemp.


Spanish TV station Antena 3 says that Garz?n told some witnesses immediately after the crash that he was not able to slow down to the necessary 80 km/h before the sharp curve - but it is not known why.

To find out, investigators are now retrieving data from the train's electronic systems - a process that must be performed carefully to prevent critical data in the damaged systems being overwritten. This could take two weeks.

"There is a lot of data that can be downloaded from various traction control computers on a train - and that should tell the investigators if the train was doing what it should have done," says Kemp.

While ERTMS works well in general, it does have vulnerabilities which researchers are attempting to address. Researchers led by Gianmarco Baldini at the European Commission's Institute for the Protection and the Security of the Citizen in Varese, Italy, have developed a system that can detect radio jamming and interference of the GSM-R signal and, within 1 second, inform train drivers and track controllers (International Journal of Critical Infrastructure Protection, doi.org/dpfmht).
 

Zhaun_sl

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So... if he literally did nothing, the train would have slowed and 79 people may not have died. He clearly was just clicking the "Ok" button over and over until the train crashed?
 

Haast

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I say put him in a cage with that guy who wrecked the cruise ship and make them fight over scraps of meat every night.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/318012
Agreed. The punishment for this kind of negligence should be severe. It goes beyond negligence; it is a callous disregard for the lives of people that put their trust in you. They may not have directly intended to kill people, but they knew what they were doing when they chose to do something reckless. And that intent should be damning.
 

iannis

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If I learned anything from Law and Order it's that criminal negligence is as serious a crime as criminal homocide is, and carries many of the same penalties!

Get Sam McCoy on this shit, it'll get sorted.