War Dogs PvPvP 100 Person Tactical Shooter

Sludig

Sludig

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Xevy said:
There's some pretty easy counters to a lot of the bullshit:

-GL's do reduced damage to lower body and/or you can't pinpoint shoot them. They should lob more than they do, and maybe lose damage at distance. They need to be the anti-infantry RPG equivalent for battlefield fights and fortified positions. Not cheap 1-shot ordinance.
-Vehicles unlock as score progresses like the APC.
-Vehicles have restrictions on amount/user cooldown that decreases as score goes up so you can spam vehicles when it's closer to end game. No tanks/Havocs off the rip.
-RPG does only anti vehicle damage but has a huge projectile hit box so you can blast vehicles, but can't spam infantry. RPG direct hits doing 35 damage guaranteed on infantry probably fine for rez cleanups and window peakers after they're dinged up.
-BMR/FAL I'm not sure about. BMR should just have a headshot modifier, but it's still easy to 1-2 tap heads. But 2-3 body shots killing is dumb. FAL is 3 shot full auto and that's pretty dumb. Maybe major damage falloff for FAL and minimum distance for BMR.
-Reduce the weight of anti vehicle shit and MINIMALLY make RPG shells 2x1 slots, not 3x1. The fucking MAWS is 2x1.
-Mortars can't triple spam. That's a no brainer. They could easily remove the RNG built in to counter this.
-HP Ammo I'm unsure on. It's definitely a strategy, but being able to kill 10 people in a 30 round MP5 HP mag is absurd. Probably just make it do more to armor, slightly less than fmj, with a bonus to limbs. The complete opposite of AP. Having a +30% damage bonus vs FMJ and 30% penalty on armor makes it worth it if you're legging still, but not nearly triple damage.
-Free kits that are free, I'm SICK of seeing like 5 dead fully naked guys in a crucial battle because they're trying to free kit up. These fuckers can't drop 300 dollars on a free gun, bag, and two mags with bandages. Wasting defibs and smokes to rez them in an absolute kick in the dick.
-One Drill per Fob. Limited pull time as I think with enough logi currently with fuel pallets you can basically infinitely suck it. Also maybe make Drills unlocked based on scores/game progression. The Tower system was supposed to do this but outside the beta and day 1/2 I don't think ANYONE has ever free tower sucked in the hundred games I've played. It just doesn't happen.
-Overall outside CERTAIN vehicles, I think most shit should do reduced damage to infantry and increased damage to vehicles/buildings. I don't want chopper cucks farming us for less than the cost of my armor and gun. Beefier RPG changes would help, but they gotta do one or the other.
-FOBs need another use. Drills are fine if toned down, but kind of annoying when the Tower system exists. They need a way to resupply troops or guarantee respawns, especially with the changes to parachutes coming where pilots have to land. The APC is nice, but it's fodder for rocket choppers unless you build a shell FOB around it. Even then they don't have to kill it if they camp it.

Basically they need to horn in the bullshit while tailoring niches to niches. Vehicles should be made for fighting vehicles and provide a presence, but they can't be better, cheaper, stronger, faster infantry with limited weaknesses. SMG's should be rewarded for <10m engagements and quick movement, but not shooting my toes off at 45m in 3 bullets. AR's should be the king of mid range, but shouldn't out dps an smg with hipfire like the M4 often does. Snipers are good early wipe, but shit later unless it's the 50 cal. I'm not sure if it's balanced or not, maybe it should do 90% damage to 2 armors instead of instakill and obviously ALWAYS 1 shot headshot. Shotguns work pretty well if you can get flesh shots and are cheap and effective. LMG's are disgusting with bipods and insane recoil if not crouched otherwise and even then pretty rough, SAW especially. PKM you can tap fire because it's shooting fucking sniper rounds. FOB's should be useful, but not the end game. I'm not trying to dodge mortars and helis for 45 minutes while drill A-C all recycle cooldowns. Hot Zone needs to be more required. Too many people just go for kills where they can get them, stale fights from HZ areas from 15 minutes ago, Bob farming, etc.

They got the parts they just need to smooth the edges and grease the right wheels.
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Yeap I brought up the being able to purchase supplies from the fob via ammo or maybe mechanical supplies. Otherwise 99% of the time coordinating a resupply is slower than just looting or respawning and coming back.

The apc I don't think was meant to really just always sit parked in rear fob. It's a big target but obviously has good synergy and power of it can help a blob push and start supported with a tank or if they ever add someone l don't more midsize vehicles.
 
Sludig

Sludig

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Mao said:
Cheats are also back today. Seeing the full auto SVD again. I guess its in response to the GL Helos, cause if I was a cheater I'd fire up the old tools to just nuke GL Helos.

The problem with the game is I don't think they can balance it honestly. When it works, its fun, and that when it works is why I'm still slamming my dick in the door jam over and over, but...

I don't see how they balance it well with vehicles and bases. Attack and GL helos are just ridiculous. The map is small enough that they can fly over, mostly wipe a base of people and AA weapons, then fly back to rearm and be back by the time we've gotten everyone rezzed and back up again. The maps honestly should be bigger. I think that would change a lot of maps were bigger and people had more ground to cover with helos so they couldn't just do a lazy circuit around the CZ and knock everything down, land, rearm, return, repeat.

Also, bigger maps would put some stuff out of range of mortars more.

Bases are also a problem. How do you make them defensively good, but not overpowered? As it is they are too easy to crack, especially if the enemy has any coordination. Last three games are good examples. GL helo's in pairs. If something shoots at 1, the other snuffs it out. CWIS, Talons etc. Last game was 2 GL Helos and Rocket Helo following an upgunned humvee. It was the start of the match. We'd just gotten the FOB placed :D So your idea of timing unlocks might help. An 'escalation' timer that starts it with a meeting skirmish and as time goes by the stakes upgrade and we get more and more toys. There might be a good playable solution there, but I don't really know if the devs are interested in that. My impression is... not really.

The problem I see is you can individually balance a lot of this shit, but its way tougher to balance at scale. You can have your single helo vs a talon, or even two. Or vs a CWIS, but... when you start flying multiple Helos in one sortie and poor Bob the builder can only get up 1 Talon and maybe a CWIS before they arrive? Yeah, he's fucked. If you make the base stronger and requiring great effort to crack, we're just going to see tonnes of base spam. We'll optimize the fun out of anything :D

Anyway its late and I'm tired. I'm gonna go sleep and see if I have more rational thoughts tomorrow :D
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I think map already plenty big, it's a long enough drive if you don't get griefed on the way. The control zone could use a 20% increase in size, would put a carrier of large buildings in the zone that currently are on the outskirts.

Delay timer I agree with though one of the strongest options is base little bird with the gl. Not sure if time locking the gun would be a good option, otherwise circles back to my previous post it's always going to be absurd or near useless. Forget cost, but even at 10k just means the guys rolling in 3 million will be the only users.
 
Mao

Mao

Trakanon Raider
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Sludig said:
I think map already plenty big, it's a long enough drive if you don't get griefed on the way. The control zone could use a 20% increase in size, would put a carrier of large buildings in the zone that currently are on the outskirts.

Delay timer I agree with though one of the strongest options is base little bird with the gl. Not sure if time locking the gun would be a good option, otherwise circles back to my previous post it's always going to be absurd or near useless. Forget cost, but even at 10k just means the guys rolling in 3 million will be the only users.
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This is more what I meant. Bigger control zone. So much of the map is rather wasted. If you notice they kinda hide this it seems by changing the center of the CZ on different iterations of the same map.

The problem with attack Helo's is how do you balance them properly? If you make them easier to kill, which in my opinion they need to be, you make it so only skilled pilots can fly them successfully locking the majority of people out. If you make it so they are easier to fly, you make skilled pilots damn near unkillable which makes the game pretty much unfun for anyone else. The game design is much more casual than skill based, so I don't see them nerfing helicopter survivability in any significantly meaningful way, other than perhaps the Havok being able to 1v1 a CWIS and win. Its... dumb.

This is the problem I have with vehicles in general. To make them worthwhile they have to be more powerful, and it can easily let 1 or 2 people have outsized power for their numbers. 1 or 2 people with vehicles is a lil spice to the mix and makes the game more interesting, but how do you do that balance without making spamming vehicles game breaking? Ground based vehicles at least have the issue of LOS and having to conform to terrain. Having the run and gun Humvee sucks, but you can sorta deal with it. Spamming heli's you have none of that. They have free range and LOS and if you don't get them with your first volley of AA, you're prolly not going to live long enough to get another chance.

The simple answer for me is move the GL to a support weapon slot, and make all support weapons unable to be fired from helo's. I'd also make the pilot unable to wear T4 armor. Especially if they do the viewport vision nerf on the T4 helmet. It would have no effect on pilots in 3d person. Let the passengers carry all the armor, just disable support weapons in the bird and make the pilot wear light armor only. Would do a bit to give people on the ground some options and make the pilot actually care about taking ground fire. Which, in real life, they get real anxious about :D
 
gauze

gauze

Molten Core Raider
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Sludig said:
GL probably should go. You don't see it a lot in games imo because it's too hard to balance having 6 he rounds on hand fast unless they need to be almost unusable small radius, damage, etc. Should replace with single shot break action, or maybe try just a pretty long refire delay.
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I was thinking about it on a morning poop. They've openly stated that they want to add more ammunition types to the game. But GL having two main damage rounds would go so far. Could easily make 20mm HE rounds that would essentially require a direct hit to kill a player, but the explosive damage is effective against structures and vehicles. I think there is a mechanic there, similar to putting hedgehogs and bremmers next to your structures to absorb damage.

Then add HE-Frag. Direct hits can kill lower armor targets but the damage mostly comes from a scatter shot // rng behaviour. Need more than one HE-Frag to reliably kill infantry in a field, but a closed room or tight corridor incredibly dangerous. Dropping 10/20/30 damage to a bunch of people on an open field with a frag round to dunking into a window, the chaotic nature sounds like a fun time.


And as far as the CIWS and AA. If you could move the command post of the CIWS anywhere within the fob zone. I think a lot of the problems go away. If you have a CIWS on wheels essentially, problems start to melt away abit. Even increasing small arms damage through the canopy, and it doesn't even have to be at a murder rate.. just enough where they would at least consider coming in with armor.

And while I didn't consider t4 helmet and third person. I think it'd be pretty funny if they added third person being effected by t4. If that happens, then they are real fucking gamers. While I've yet to see it, there is a bit of talk regarding fog and droplets accumulate on the visor of the T4 helm and have heard talks of the same with vehicles. While I could be absolutely wrong and we will definitely see.. but people have also said it extends to vehicles and gives me the vibe that the rain will be anti-vehicle mechanic but not a no vehicles. Makes me think of Arc and the storm effect, the armorless fights in a game where youre always fighting with armor was a good fucking time.
 
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Sludig

Sludig

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gauze said:
I was thinking about it on a morning poop. They've openly stated that they want to add more ammunition types to the game. But GL having two main damage rounds would go so far. Could easily make 20mm HE rounds that would essentially require a direct hit to kill a player, but the explosive damage is effective against structures and vehicles. I think there is a mechanic there, similar to putting hedgehogs and bremmers next to your structures to absorb damage.

Then add HE-Frag. Direct hits can kill lower armor targets but the damage mostly comes from a scatter shot // rng behaviour. Need more than one HE-Frag to reliably kill infantry in a field, but a closed room or tight corridor incredibly dangerous. Dropping 10/20/30 damage to a bunch of people on an open field with a frag round to dunking into a window, the chaotic nature sounds like a fun time.


And as far as the CIWS and AA. If you could move the command post of the CIWS anywhere within the fob zone. I think a lot of the problems go away. If you have a CIWS on wheels essentially, problems start to melt away abit.
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Lol even better with that last idea, imagine if that control could operate multiple at once somehow, like choose ones pov, and the other tracks to roughly that point of aim. If it's into a building oh well. Still give you some awesome battle star point defence scenes. I've had a number of times where the base getting pounded but no one at the controls. Too scared to get shot up or the helps appeared too fast so it's a suicide run to get to the station. If they are orbiting a tower usually too low or break los too quick for stinger.
 
gauze

gauze

Molten Core Raider
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It's happening.. the ma deuce is official.. 100 years of freedom.

mk14, m2 browning 50cal, and two more guns.. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a FN P90 to start introducing 5.7.. and either a 300blk, 7.62x39, or 6.8 rifle. Though.. the ma deuce might not even be one of the 4 guns as you can't even shoulder the bitch, and could be sludigs idea of an mg setup.
 
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Sludig

Sludig

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gauze said:


It's happening.. the ma deuce is official.. 100 years of freedom.

mk14, m2 browning 50cal, and two more guns.. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a FN P90 to start introducing 5.7.. and either a 300blk, 7.62x39, or 6.8 rifle. Though.. the ma deuce might not even be one of the 4 guns as you can't even shoulder the bitch, and could be sludigs idea of an mg setup.
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Ya, unless it's a backpack item you set up on a tripod like a fob itself, that's gonna be humvee/fob.
 
Xevy

Xevy

Log Wizard
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Watched a guy who was in my game with TTV in his name. He's level 95 Pilot. All he does is fly. He literally just plays the game like CoD deathmatch and kills as many people as he can, goes to base, new chopper, goes again.

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He was #1 and #2 was another little bird cuck. Absolute dogshit. Went to check his VoD for his PoV and it's just unmeaningful throwaway combat over and over and over again. He's also got shadows off, so meta cuck to the nth degree. He left my lobby, but that "This Bird Lands" guy stayed and tried to helicuck again after. He didn't do as well.

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35 ETHICAL Infantry kills to that dipshits fucking 45 cuck kills. I actually juked him once as infantry and he slammed into a factory and exploded. Felt good. If you watch the GOOD chopper pilots they literally kill everyone in about 3-5 bullets so fast there's 0 chance to do anything if they spot you first. He kept typing and comming "but was my flying good though?" Just little pup behavior being enabled by bad balance.

If you watch that mac1lej guy's vods you can see him just uncaringly fly around until there's no less than 3 AA rockets and 2 CWIS and 2 verba guys. Just 0 threat otherwise. Never even gets shot out of his helicopter and is more likely to clip a tree than get shot down by anything other than a CIWS/Talon.
 
Mao

Mao

Trakanon Raider
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To a good pilot, the AA is not really a threat. Flares are 100% successful to all missiles in the air and they stay low enough they are out of LOS of most places that are defended. If its tall and able to have good LOS, its usually easy to snipe or kill with the helicopter itself. The flares have a fast enough cooldown that its tough to stack missiles unless the guy is close and I believe its near impossible to do solo. The keep moving at a good speed so MAAWS and RPGS are not reliable, though they do work. Ground fire has worked before with enough lucky shots, but armor negates a lot of that.

Hopefully the AA tank is more reliable, but seeing all the tanks die to a good salvo from the rocket heli I'm... skeptical it will work.

Best strat I have seen so far seems to be the blob with air helicopters providing cover. FOB has worked on occasion, but only time I see it work is on the Zest map, or another like it where you have a hard structure that the spawn vehicle and FOB can be inside and protected and you just spam drills to keep pulling the HZ.

I am ready for the patch, but a lot of the future of the game hinges on this wipe and what and how they patch. They don't have to get it right, but they do have to convince people that they are moving in the right direction and... I think that might be harder than people think with this dev team. They seem good and open to communication, but I think the 'We're right you all are wrong' attitude they keep taking will hurt them if the changes don't seem to fit with what players are experiencing.

"Most people aren't running T4 armor" is one I think they parroted, when talking about armor being an issue. And yeah sure, cause once the match is losing a lot of people just run cheap kits. So yeah, your data is right. Your reasoning and what you think it reveals I question :D
 
gauze

gauze

Molten Core Raider
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490
Lol, i'm a bulkhead simp. I'm the target audience, slop consumed. Everything is so perfect. M14, MG338, 6.8 Spear, molotovs, fffu

Though.. my only complaint. Why add a Bizon, when the Vityaz is already in the game? LIterally can just be a mag upgrade :c

Also to those struggling to kill with the launchers.. I got into a deathball the other day where we shot the shit a lot and decided to ask the guy who was basically launching every bird and nailing every humvee; he was constantly asking for drugs.. basically said he doesn't really fuck with anything beyond 200meters as they're not really that scary then and could kill inc enemies too. Within the game there were probably 12 havocs, but the only ones I know for sure were the 7 that he took out of the sky.. after awhile it just kinda stopped showing up to the deathball and harassed the other team.

ugh i hate bigfry, but hes got an info dump
 
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Sludig

Sludig

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With the mortar half in a bunker trick I see being able to get very well covered .50s covered to all but a rocket heli maybe. Esp if you can mount just inside normal building windows
 
Sludig

Sludig

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I planned to go heavy recon/supply, but with the wolf .50 and gepard that's going to make me pretty lusty if they aren't shit.

Maybe make easier by the sniper ammo getting big nerf. If you can't 1-2 tap then 3-4 is going to be worthless unless you get the perfect mid range opportunities, otherwise might as well run scoped ar, and the real long shots will just scurry away
 
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Mao

Mao

Trakanon Raider
770
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I have questions for Bulkhead, and while I think they are skilled developers, I firmly believe the 'attitude' and such is marketing PR and spin. IF you are a scrappy upstart, play the scrappy upstart and market it. Them paying streamers and such, lets be real. They're a company, don't buy the verbal garbage, lets see what they actually do.

Atm, for me, its a mixed bag. New weapons and vehicles might shake it up a bit and has a chance to level out some of the meta. They are nerfing drills, which I find interesting. I rarely see the drill strat work outside of specific cases on invulnerable building Fobs. And even then its a miserable slog.

It wasn't in their trailer vid and discussion, but apparently they are nerfing the end game rifles some to bring them in line, but their overall statement is "This isn't our final form, shits unbalanced we know but wait till we get skills put into the game, it will level out the equipment imbalance." Umm.... what? That just means grinders will have more skills and so will be even further ahead. I don't see how they think skills will help overcome gear disparity.

The blue team buff will be interesting. Will it be premade stacks using it to just farm bonus XP and win, or will it be a bunch of solos just off doing random shit to grind their unlocks? I figure we'll see both.

The helmet FOV nerf seems... inconsequential. It blocks top and bottom but not enough to be significant, and the sides still seem full. We'll have to see this fogging mechanic and noise reduction to see if it matters, but I've already had audio problems with helicopters overhead just... vanishing to be replaced by the breeze in the leaves :D

I wonder how the Wolf 50 will be any good? My guess is it might be an interim anti air if the .50 has its traditional good kill ratio vs helos. OTherwise, it doesn't appear to have armor. Its just a land rover defender with a gun ring and no cover. Expect a lot of dead crew members.

The thing I find interesting is the gambling mechanic. Get bonus money and shit if you play under certain self imposed conditions? That... sounds interesting.

Anyway... ATM the game really feels sorta like an FPS MMO. More heavily on the FPS side, but with the skills and gear unlocks actually having power advantages, it really does have shadows of MMO ilvl at work.

We'll just have to see how it all comes out in the wash. I'm wishful, but I wouldn't exactly call myself hopeful. I think they've committed to the power fantasy of overpowered gear and I personally am not as big of a fan of that.

EDIT: Slipping this in here. Think I said it before. They are big on 'We're not listening to players, we're looking at the data. Whiners and criers are not going to influence us to chase trends." This is, overall, good advice. I just am listening to them talk and think yeah, they have the data but that doesn't mean they interpret it well. They talk about how T4 armor is not as prevalent as people say it is. Sure. I can agree with that. Not as many people field it, but that doesn't mean its not overpowered cause they don't see it as much. A lot of Fobbits don't buy it. Lot of people, if there is no big blob and they aren't looking to slog it out, or if its later in the game and they are losing, just won't buy it. They'll go economy runs. So yeah, data shows T4 isn't as common in game as discussion would have you believe. However, its effects on the game definitely are and a HZ blob of all T4 can just steam roll till they run out of meds or their armor breaks. So yeah, they have the data. I just am curious if they can make sense of it.
 
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