War with Syria

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I was replying to strikes in general, and yes, any reasonable person understands if you threaten strikes against a country for their leader committing an action then the leader committing that action would generally be expected to be taken out.
Any reasonable person that keeps up with the news wouldn't. Go read the transcript of that interview where the red line was introduced. The reporter asked about the possibility of using military force to secure chemical weapons. Obama said chemical weapons would make him change his calculations on military intervention. Other than the issue of chemical weapons, America has absolutely no interest in Syria -- none. The issue started on chemical weapons, and it remains on chemical weapons. Other than the neo-cons like Mccain, no one was beating the war drums for regime change.

The rest of your post is just factually wrong. Aside from the U.S. who has come to the conclusion that chemical weapons were used, intelligence agencies in Britain, Germany, and France have all come to the same conclusions. But I wasn't really interested in debating that crap anyways. We never intended to intervene to remove him from power. That was how things were before, and that is how things are now. If you never wanted us to bomb Assad, you should be happy with the deal. If you wanted us to bomb him to get rid of him, like Mccain, you should be angry. Or if you don't really give a shit and just want to look for ways to stick it to Obama, I guess that's good enough reason to be mad too.
 

Erronius

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Yeah, that's why I voted for him twice. Bias confirming.
So you're saying that you're one of the people I alluded to that is looking for "anything" to criticize Obama for? I just want to make sure that I understand you right.

I was very specific in how I worded what I said - I'm not talking rational levels of criticism here, I'm talking about the pants-on-head retarded levels of of idiocy that we've been seeing. One day he's been criticized for not taking a position, the next day he's being criticized for taking a position. One day people complain that he shouldn't consider taking unilateral action (strikes bad), then the next day people bitch because they think that unilateral action is now not an option (diplomacy bad, why U no strike?). People talked as if chemical weapons should be our only concern and that we shouldn't involve ourselves in a civil war (if that), then when suddenly we end up with a diplomatic solution and the chemical weapons ARE our only concern, the same fucking people whine that it wont be enough, that we can't trust them, and start talking like if we're going to do anything effective that we'll have to do more (after this all began with people not wanting to get involved in the first place).

Don't get me wrong, the Obama WH is absolutely being reactionary to public opinion, but what the fuck is wrong with that? If instead of Obama we had a president who was gung-ho for regime change, used the war powers act and then put BoTG, people would be pissed. They'd be bitching about a president who didn't listen to public opinion and just made the decision on his own and people would likely be wishing that we had a president that was willing to change tack instead of just lowering his head and charging forward, details be damned. Obama isn't perfect, but Jesus tittyfucking Christ some of you just can't be pleased. This is all especially mind bottling since we're entering a post-Iraq period, one would think that people would be thrilled not to have another war to fight in the ME.

Please, show me a source where the Obama WH intended regime change, because I'd honestly like to see it. If it's just your opinion/suspicion though,then I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
 

fanaskin

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What's the point of arming rebels with machine guns and rockets if regime change isn't factored into that somehow? just for the fun of spreading violence?

Whether "regime change" is the explicit goal of tomahawk military strikes or whether it's part of an overall strategy at play that started germinating as early as 2005 seems like it's splitting hairs on intent.
 

AladainAF

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Any reasonable person that keeps up with the news wouldn't. Go read the transcript of that interview where the red line was introduced. The reporter asked about the possibility of using military force to secure chemical weapons. Obama said chemical weapons would make him change his calculations on military intervention. Other than the issue of chemical weapons, America has absolutely no interest in Syria -- none.
Since you like throwing transcripts around... (Note this is from April 30 this year). Sounds like Obama is quite interested in regime change, admitted that chemical weapons is a game changer, and wants to make sure before he takes any action (against who?) he needs to have the facts, and even spells them out "but we don't know how they were used, when they were used, who used them; we don't have chain of custody that establishes what exactly happened.".

Now he does - and he didn't act. It wasn't a game changer. Now.. later in that transcript, he refused to say military action. But read what he said. He extremely politically said nothing but fluff. Non-answers. "We will look at our options". "I'm talking to the pentagon about what actions will be available to us", etc. Sorry, but you don't consult the pentagon unless you're taking military action.

Most political fluff answer ever:

Now, we're already, as I said, invested in trying to bring about a solution inside of Syria. Obviously, there are options that are available to me that are on the shelf right now that we have not deployed, and that's a spectrum of options. You know, as -- as early as last year I asked the Pentagon, our military, our intelligence officials to prepare for me what options might be available. And I won't go into the details of what those options might be, but you know, clearly, that would be an escalation, in our view, of the threat to the security of the international community, our allies and the United States. And that means that there's some options that we might not otherwise exercise that we would -- that we would strongly consider.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...-changer-syria

Well, first of all, on Syria, I think it's important to understand that for several years now what we've been seeing is a slowly unfolding disaster for the Syrian people, andthis is not a situation in which we've been simply bystandersto what's been happening.

My policy from the beginning has been President Assad had lost credibility; that he attacked his own people, has killed his own people, unleashed a military against innocent civilians; and that the only way to bring stability and peace to Syria is going to be forAssad to step downand -- and to move forward on a political transition.

In pursuit of that strategy, we've organized the international community. We are the largest humanitarian donor.We have worked to strengthen the opposition. We have provided nonlethal assistance to the opposition. We have applied sanctions on Syria. So there are a whole host of steps that we've been taking precisely because even separate from the chemical weapons issue, what's happening in Syria is a blemish on the international community generally, and we've got to make sure that we're doing everything we can to protect the Syrian people.

In that context, what I've also said is that the use of chemical weapons would be a game changer, not simply for the United States for but the international community. And the reason for that is that we have established international law and international norms that say when you use these kinds of weapons, you have the potential of killing massive numbers of people in the most inhumane way possible, and the proliferation risks are so significant that we don't want that genie out of the bottle. So when I've said the use of chemical weapons would be a game changer, that wasn't unique to -- that wasn't a position unique to the United States, and it shouldn't have been a surprise.

And what we now have is evidence that chemical weapons have been used inside of Syria, but we don't know how they were used, when they were used, who used them; we don't have chain of custody that establishes what exactly happened.And when I am making decisions about America's national security and the potential for taking additional action in response to chemical weapon use, I've got to make sure I've got the facts.

That's what the American people would expect. And if we end up rushing to judgment without hard, effective evidence, then we can find ourselves in the position where we can't mobilize the international community to support what we do. There may be objections even among some people in the region who are sympathetic with the opposition if we take action. So, you know, it's important for us to do this in a prudent way.

And what I've said to my team is, we've got to do everything we can to investigate and establish with some certainty what exactly has happened in Syria, what is happening in Syria. We will use all the assets and resources that we have at our disposal. We'll work with the neighboring countries to see whether we can establish a clear baseline of facts. And we've also called on the United Nations to investigate.

But the important point I want to make here is that we already are deeply engaged in trying to bring about a solution in Syria. It is a difficult problem. But even if chemical weapons were not being used in Syria, we'd still be thinking about tens of thousands of people, innocent civilians, women, children, who've been killed by a regime that's more concerned about staying in power than it is about the well-being of its people. And so we are already deeply invested in trying to find a solution here.
 

fanaskin

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Blog that thoroughly goes through video available.

Syria seems to be responsible for the chemical weapons attacks.

Those of you have been following the blog for the past few weeks will already know I've been spending a lot of time looking at "spent rocket casings", and that the UN has closely examined the munition I've dubbed the UMLACA (Unidentified Munition Linked to Alleged Chemical Attacks). The evidence I've gathered seems to point towards the government being responsible for the use of these munitions, with evidence I've examined pointing towards the opposition being responsible seeming very weak. If the UN report confirms these are chemical munitions, then it seems almost certain the government were responsible for firing them.

What many people aren't aware of is that the same munitions are linked to at least one previous chemical attack. Earlier on August 5th, two areas of Damascus, Douma and Adra, were hit by an alleged chemical attack, with around 400 victims reported injured in Douma, and at least a couple of dozen in Adra. I've collected videos from the attack here, and the following video with English subtitles has one of the victims explaining what happen in Adra
Video Shows Assad's Forces Loading, Firing, Munition Linked To Chemical Attacks
This is the same munitions type used in aug 21 and other chemical attacks in syria.
Red berets are worn by members of the* Syrian Republican Guard, also known as the Presidential Guard, as well as the military police.
Uniform and insignia
The Republican Guard uniform is distinct from the regular Army uniform. Service dress is composed of red berets rather than the standard black or green, red epaulettes, red lanyards, and brown leather belts with brown shoes.
rrr_img_43648.jpg

The sarin shells fired on Damascus - by Syrian 4th Division's 155th Brigade - were followed by rockets on Israel and car bombings in Lebanon
 

Quaid

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so wait... your President puts aside his ego (in regards to his 'red line' comments) and decides to not make war on a nation that may or may not deserve it... and this is a bad thing?

I'm Canadian so I'm not gonna pretend to know all that much about American political happenings... but I've gotta say, instigating more wars based on hard-line absolute stances and sketchy 'evidence' hasn't really served you guys all that well in the (very recent) past.

I'd love some details on what the guy (Obama) has actually done wrong here besides some rhetorical posturing biting him in the ass.
 

fanaskin

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Saving face is not rhetorical, intimidation is part of how empires are run. If you look weak it invites provocation, The arguement is basically around the notion of how to posture without looking weak and achieve the aims, because if you aren't prepared to back up your claims then you risk looking weak when your bluff is called.

Also there is something to the notion the american public is being manipulated by russia/assad to exploit it's war weariness to achieve favorable conditions for their aims. Disimformation is a goal of news services as well, if you find yourself agreeing with RT and al jazeera in harmony sit around and contemplate if that's coincidental or not, sometimes it won't be.
 

tad10

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so wait... your President puts aside his ego (in regards to his 'red line' comments) and decides to not make war on a nation that may or may not deserve it... and this is a bad thing?

I'm Canadian so I'm not gonna pretend to know all that much about American political happenings... but I've gotta say, instigating more wars based on hard-line absolute stances and sketchy 'evidence' hasn't really served you guys all that well in the (very recent) past.

I'd love some details on what the guy (Obama) has actually done wrong here besides some rhetorical posturing biting him in the ass.
No one in the entire fucking world gives a fuck what Obama will say from here on out. He fucked up by threatening to invade, then he fucked up by not doing something to back up his threat. Finally, he (or rather Kerry) fucked up by giving Putin an opening that made Russia look good and the USA look like the keystone cops.

Now all of this is going on while Obama's CIA is still arming AQ terrorists in Syria, he's managed to get all sides in Egypt to hate us, he's abandon Iraq to Iranian influence, he's letting Iran get nuclear weapons and of course the Taliban to retake Afghanistan. Pretty much worst foreign policy president ever - makes even Bush's fuckups look like small potatoes, I didn't believe that was possible given that Bush's Iraq fuckup resulted in 100,000 dead Iraqis.

@Erronius good to see you don't understand the situation as usual.
 

Quaid

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Now all of this is going on while Obama's CIA is still arming AQ terrorists in Syria, he's managed to get all sides in Egypt to hate us, he's abandon Iraq to Iranian influence, he's letting Iran get nuclear weapons and of course the Taliban to retake Afghanistan. Pretty much worst foreign policy president ever - makes even Bush's fuckups look like small potatoes, I didn't believe that was possible given that Bush's Iraq fuckup resulted in 100,000 dead Iraqis.

@Erronius good to see you don't understand the situation as usual.
Can someone also please explain to me why Iran matters in the slightest? What exactly is the danger to the United States of them being nuclear armed? All I can think of is oil prices... And that seems too cliche and simple....
 

Quaid

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Saving face is not rhetorical, intimidation is part of how empires are run. If you look weak it invites provocation, The arguement is basically around the notion of how to posture without looking weak and achieve the aims, because if you aren't prepared to back up your claims then you risk looking weak when your bluff is called.

Also there is something to the notion the american public is being manipulated by russia/assad to exploit it's war weariness to achieve favorable conditions for their aims. Disimformation is a goal of news services as well, if you find yourself agreeing with RT and al jazeera in harmony sit around and contemplate if that's coincidental or not, sometimes it won't be.
You honestly believe that because President Obama decided to not obliterate (another) country, people will take the United States, and its embarrassingly well trained and equipped military, less seriously?

No my man, if there's one thing the world does not doubt, it's the ability and willingness of the United States to exercise its might. Don't worry, Russia isn't gonna toss ICBMs over because your President went back on a threat. You're still plenty fucking scary, trust me.
 

Agraza

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Can someone also please explain to me why Iran matters in the slightest? What exactly is the danger to the United States of them being nuclear armed? All I can think of is oil prices... And that seems too cliche and simple....
I'm in favor of letting Iran develop nukes. I think they're just trying to be sovereign and join the big boy club, not actually use them. There is zero upside to using them. And the people running Iran are serious people that can comprehend that.

But I believe the ongoing justification for stopping/stalling them is that they are significant state sponsors of terrorism, and they may somehow equip their jihadist pets with them. This assumes several iterations of miniaturization they wouldn't be capable of for decades in the best conditions. A second alleged problem is that if Iran gets nukes our host of buddies may feel compelled to go nuclear. A domino effect of nuclear sovereigns increases the chances of losing control of these weapons to stateless entities that can't be controlled via diplomacy, but I just don't buy that the domino effect would occur. If Iran ever actually used a nuclear weapon the entire world would invade overnight. We can trace any nuclear event to its source, so if any of their pets used one, we would still invade.
 

Quaid

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But like... Terrorists attacks on US interests stem from American interventionist foreign policy... No? These guys aren't just beating their wives one day and think to themselves 'ya know what, America is the Satan and AYAYALALALA'

So... Wouldn't that be the quickest way to stop terrorism, and thus, not have to worry about 'State sponsors of terror'?

Then the only rationale for me is 'manufactured enemy to feed the military industrial complex' blah blah.... Which again, feels cliche and too simple.
 

Agraza

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It's not just military intervention though. It's the economic system that we and other G8/G12/G20 whatever nations perpetuate and the politics that we have often supported covertly/overtly in the region. For example we helped establish the Shah that they overthrew to establish their theocratic republic. We trade food and military equipment for oil and compliance to the world economic system.

We're not going to pull out of policing the world as a means of establishing our capitalist ideology. We have our finger in too many pies to do that. At best we'll recede from Asia if China proves a capable and trustworthy regional power in the coming decades, but in the meantime we're actually reinforcing Asia and negotiating multi-lateral pacific trade agreements with lesser powers to diminish the effect of their growing influence.
 

Quaid

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The Middle East just seems like too much trouble to be worth it... Hell, I'm pretty sure US oil imports from the area are down to 12%... Shift that purchasing power to Canada. We'll spend the money on Molson and Leafs tickets rather than Boxcutters and Airline tickets.
 

Agraza

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You're still our biggest trade partner, but shale isn't cheap enough to abandon imports of crude. I hope that Keystone is cancelled and y'all do just build a pacific pipeline for China though. We need to focus on replacing oil, and I wouldn't mind seeing China become more addicted to it while we do.
 

tad10

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You're still our biggest trade partner, but shale isn't cheap enough to abandon imports of crude. I hope that Keystone is cancelled and y'all do just build a pacific pipeline for China though. We need to focus on replacing oil, and I wouldn't mind seeing China become more addicted to it while we do.
Because it's better to have an oil disaster at sea than on land? Or because you just like higher oil prices?
 

Agraza

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Because higher costs will make less ecologically dangerous and more geopolitically secure alternatives more attractive, which I tried to imply by mentioning its replacement.

Higher oil prices are means to an end.
 

tad10

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Because higher costs will make less ecologically dangerous and more geopolitically secure alternatives more attractive, which I tried to imply by mentioning its replacement.

Higher oil prices are means to an end.
Yes, lets keep stepping on our economy. It's been going so well. We don't have quite enough people on food stamps yet.