Randin
Trakanon Raider
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Huh, they resurrected Trials of Ascension? Never expected I'd hear about that game again, after they canceled it the first time.
Well, now what?
- Thread starter kitsune
- Start date
I find it pretty incredible that I'm currently playing EQ Mac and having as much fun as ever. It's a 13 year old game with ancient technology but the world is just so great, and so is the combat mechanics, the progression, the classes, and everything else. Admittedly I wouldn't be playing if it wasn't for the ability to multi box (for free), but still... I find myself sitting in Unrest or something and I remember sitting there 13 years ago when I first played and it makes me realize that there is really something special about the game.
There is also a enormous amount of depth to everything in the game, it's only really now that I can pick things apart and notice what they did. For example I spent the last couple of days camped in Upper Guk. It can be very trainy but I found a little nook, like a dead end corridor, and it's perfect to set up camp. So I invised my guys and got them to this spot, and then I just pulled nice fat white and blue con mobs to the little nook and got myself a couple of levels. But while I was doing it I was thinking about how I was getting so much out of this one tiny area, with no nameds, and yet there is a massive dungeon in all directions that I'm not even using yet. I also remembered how there is one little gap that leads to a whole other dungeon, Lower Guk, and it made me think about the first person to discover that, and how it was for players before there were maps. I played then but I can't even remember how I found Lower Guk. Maybe someone showed me, or maybe I had to explore all of Upper Guk until I found it. Either way it's so cool having a whole epic dungeon hidden within another dungeon.
Then later on, there was a Druid I have seen around, she is mid 30's, and she mentioned in chat that it was a successful day for her and she linked some items she camped. There were 2 really great Druid items with +5 wis and various other stats, and she got them by herself which was a hard job. And she was doing that while I was doing my thing in Upper Guk. Then back in PoK there was a big discussion amongst about a dozen people about some game mechanic, I can't remember what it was now but it was about a stat or something, and it was a huge discussion and everyone had so much to say about it.
And it just struck me, fuck this is such a deep game, and STILL after 13 years, people are playing it and getting a lot out of it. And when you think that it's a small budget game that never intended to be huge, that says a lot.
There is also a enormous amount of depth to everything in the game, it's only really now that I can pick things apart and notice what they did. For example I spent the last couple of days camped in Upper Guk. It can be very trainy but I found a little nook, like a dead end corridor, and it's perfect to set up camp. So I invised my guys and got them to this spot, and then I just pulled nice fat white and blue con mobs to the little nook and got myself a couple of levels. But while I was doing it I was thinking about how I was getting so much out of this one tiny area, with no nameds, and yet there is a massive dungeon in all directions that I'm not even using yet. I also remembered how there is one little gap that leads to a whole other dungeon, Lower Guk, and it made me think about the first person to discover that, and how it was for players before there were maps. I played then but I can't even remember how I found Lower Guk. Maybe someone showed me, or maybe I had to explore all of Upper Guk until I found it. Either way it's so cool having a whole epic dungeon hidden within another dungeon.
Then later on, there was a Druid I have seen around, she is mid 30's, and she mentioned in chat that it was a successful day for her and she linked some items she camped. There were 2 really great Druid items with +5 wis and various other stats, and she got them by herself which was a hard job. And she was doing that while I was doing my thing in Upper Guk. Then back in PoK there was a big discussion amongst about a dozen people about some game mechanic, I can't remember what it was now but it was about a stat or something, and it was a huge discussion and everyone had so much to say about it.
And it just struck me, fuck this is such a deep game, and STILL after 13 years, people are playing it and getting a lot out of it. And when you think that it's a small budget game that never intended to be huge, that says a lot.
Maybe but it's relevant to the discussion too. The know your future, you must know your past. And playing EQ again after all this time lets me look at it again with fresh eyes. It's weird because no other game has ever done MMO's quite like EQ. The nearest we ever had was Vanguard but even that game is a totally different experience. You are constantly running around, you go to a hub and get 15 quests and rush off to do those. Then after your hand ins you go to another hub and repeat. It's more like WoW than anything else, and so are pretty much all other MMO's.
EQ was the only game to play quite like EQ. There was no guidance, you just have a huge world and have to follow your nose and hope for the best. It's possible people like me only love it so much because it was our first major love. But maybe it was just really good and really suits some types of gamers. If that's so, they industry needs to understand exactly what made it work so that they can re-create a similar experience. Even Brad and his dream team, problems aside, even if they had a bigger budget or whatever, they never would have made the same experience. EQ is still untouched.
EQ was the only game to play quite like EQ. There was no guidance, you just have a huge world and have to follow your nose and hope for the best. It's possible people like me only love it so much because it was our first major love. But maybe it was just really good and really suits some types of gamers. If that's so, they industry needs to understand exactly what made it work so that they can re-create a similar experience. Even Brad and his dream team, problems aside, even if they had a bigger budget or whatever, they never would have made the same experience. EQ is still untouched.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
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So since I know you apparently don't read other threads of a similar nature to grasp the finer points, I'll highlight some shit. EQ was not "harder" than any other game that has been developed since. Look at progression servers and the speed in which they plow through shit. The gaming public as a whole is not as easy to fool as the original EQ audience. The gameplay is simplistic, not deep. The combat is laughable, not rich. I played a raiding/pulling/tanking SK during my day (vanilla-sol, then during God-DoD) and I can definitely say that modern games have MUCH stricter attention/skill/reflex requirements than EQ had at any point during it's lifecycle. There is no compare, and to do so is to highlight your ignorance of the genre as a whole.
EQ quests were not difficult. The difficulty lie in that shit was on a week long spawn in most cases and had a "chance" to drop shit as opposed to being guaranteed. That isn't difficulty; that is patience. The ability to sit through 10 CT kills to get a Soul Leech is not player skill or some randomly heightened sense of wellbeing. It is a shitty mechanic that requires other shitty mechanics in order to process at a reasonable rate. That is bad design and if you think it is good design you are a terrible person and should stop commenting on games. Take that home and stew on it.
The big deal that EQ had that other games don't is ignorance. Ignorance of the genre; ignorance of role dependencies; ignorance of effect. The shit would be and is plowed through (progression server wise) by modern MMO players on a daily basis. What we thought was hard is a joke by today's standards... and that includes players of yesteryear.
EQ as we remember it can't exist again because we as a playerbase are Smarter than we were during vanilla. EQ is a joke today comparatively. You take out the ability of guilds to intentionally cockblock the playerbase and you have a carebear game of epic standards. Pretending otherwise just makes people look silly. EQ relied on content denial. Your timezone determined your relevance. Chew on that, eh?
Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
- 12,307
- 30,227
Yes, but there is also the fact that progression servers are still EQ, a game which has had its ins and outs known for years upon years. A new game built similar to EQ would not be quite as inscrutable as it originally was, due to how easy it is to surf websites and shit while you play, and datamining and shit, but it wouldn't be like a progression server of EQ. Exploration and learning doesn't happen instantaneously in a vacuum. You either have to put the time in (like a new game), or go off of memory or other people's information (EQ progression servers).
You both have points, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
You both have points, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Tolan
Member of the Year 2016
- 7,249
- 2,038
You are comparing an analysis of a partial group dungeon camp to a high-end, perhaps zerging, guild raid of CT. Then you compare the projected mindset of a player in 1999 playing in the context of a brand new game to multi-boxing veterans with EQ PhD's plowing through a progression server, which doesn't even use the same client.
I think you can do better than that.
Rod-138
Trakanon Raider
- 1,148
- 893
I'd like a value roll system being a group option. The leader could initiate it and basically while the group has loot rights, have a system to where the guys there the longest have a slightly higher chance to win rolls.
Always sucked when you were in fungi for 5 hours and the new edition rolls in gets his shit and rolls out. I think you have to encourage new members winning to attract grouping, but give a bonus to the poor sap that's missed all the rolls
Always sucked when you were in fungi for 5 hours and the new edition rolls in gets his shit and rolls out. I think you have to encourage new members winning to attract grouping, but give a bonus to the poor sap that's missed all the rolls
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,383
- 276
Qwerty I might be off here but imagine vanilla WoW with quest xp turned off, xp to level increased by 10x, and full respawns in dungeons. Simple changes really, all thats missing is the dungeon being public (probably not too hard to change either). Would you like that game or probably not like it?
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 4,486
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No, there is nothing to do better than "that." EQ was only difficult in the sense that the total MMO playerbase was substantially smaller and that information wasn't included in the UI. All quest information was available on forums. All strategies were available to people who communicated with each other because centralized information websites were in the making. Today, were EQ to come out fresh with zero spoilers? Shit would be destroyed in weeks (not months) and Allas would have been up and 100% correct in probably hours of beta being completed. The game was/is not difficult in any real sense of difficulty. What it was, for its time, was tedious. Camping VT shards was not difficult. Camping VP keys was not difficult. Killing -most- of NTOV was not difficult. What it was, was hearding a playerbase that consisted of substantially less aware/skilled players since what we had was all there was, to kill shit that had simplistic mechanics at best and in most cases was a simple "Do you have enough awake healers?"
I mean... seriously, we're comparing mobs running to modern AI scripting and saying EQ was for any reason "better?" Apparently you never played with an SK/necro/bard/ranger/druid/paladin/shaman/wizard/etc so that your mobs were rooted or snared and they did not run. Running mobs was a condition of the fight, much like mobs casting stun or heal. And modern NPCs do the same exact shit in basically every game since. Except in modern games, mobs don't turn their back to you for the last 20% of health and let you get a damage-free kill if you have any form of snare. They tend to continue fighting.
There is no reason not to like EQ for a number of reasons, but comparing it to modern games and say that EQ was better is simply rose-colored glasses and an inability to make a reasonable comparison. The only thing EQ had "over" modern games was the ability to deny content to other players. That is -not- a positive.
Compare how fast Legendaries were made in GW2 to anything EQ had. The only thing is in today's world, most people would quit EQ because it was bug ridden at the start and it would never of lasted for expansions to come out.
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
- 5,862
- 294
Actually, I think you might be onto something here. Game world resets every 2-4 weeks, players can change it significantly, you have multiple shards to choose from, but you are bound to a shard for the period so the world doesn't get too crowded. You have 2 types of progression, one tied to your characters, which would be items and some minor specialization of the character, that resets every cycle. The other would be bound to your account, which is permanent and that would be levels of your characters, maybe some rare skins/pets.
The idea is that you are encouraged to roll multiple characters, which are ala GW2, maybe a few less skills and certain parts of the world are closed or nigh on impossible to do with your current character, so you have to roll a new one, with maybe 10 classes unlocked from the start with the rest unlocked through playing more. After every reset, you get short summary of all the things you accomplished and the best loot you received that can be viewed through web, with the most accomplished players going to hall of fame. Basically a mix of GW2, Dota and D2 ladder system and itemization. You could start with a small world that you eventually expand and different rulesets, PvE only and full loot PvP FFA would be the obvious ones. Having a max level character lets you get back to max power significantly faster after reset compared to new one.
Individually it comes down to a gamers philosophy on what type (and degree) of skinner box you prefer, this quote from Xeldar really needs to be considered whenever the merits of EQ, other games, and life in general are debated. From Xeldar:
Personally I would pick original EQ tedium over scripted, button smashing, twitched based combat any day. Say what you will about the ability to deny content/lack of positives in EQ's gameplay but it fostered (required?) interaction and community, a phenomenon anemic in today's games - which I guess may be a positive or negative depending on how you approach it. It is difficult to get players to interact and have community however when you have cheese dripping from their gullets =/
Tarrant
<Prior Amod>
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I'm playing the Firefall beta again and finding all the content they've added since I last played months ago to be pretty good. It's pretty fun and different from much of what's out. How long it will last for me though is a different story all together.
I have 4 invites left if anyone is interested.
Heads up, the UI is kinda shitty and takes a lot of getting used to....it's like they made it with using a game controller in mind.
I have 4 invites left if anyone is interested.
Heads up, the UI is kinda shitty and takes a lot of getting used to....it's like they made it with using a game controller in mind.
BilboFaggins
N00b
- 302
- 22
I don't disagree with Rezz on the simplicity of EQ, but I do disagree with the comparison between the combat systems of EQ versus modern mmorpg.
The modern mmorpg combat system that pretty much Wow brought about is not comparable to EQ on the basis of better or worse. They are two separate kinds of systems.
Wow's combat system is twitch based. EQ's combat system is stat based. It's like comparing apples to oranges. So when you say that EQ didn't make you have to react to constant twitch mechanics during combat, I say no shit dick Tracey. You're picking the mechanics that wow used and eq didn't to base you arguments on. It's fucking easy to win arguments when you cherry pick the topics to base it off of.
The simple fact is that EQ is a MMORPG and all of the wow clones are MMOHSG (massively multiplayer online hack and slash game). They are not the same and they are not comparable.
The modern mmorpg combat system that pretty much Wow brought about is not comparable to EQ on the basis of better or worse. They are two separate kinds of systems.
Wow's combat system is twitch based. EQ's combat system is stat based. It's like comparing apples to oranges. So when you say that EQ didn't make you have to react to constant twitch mechanics during combat, I say no shit dick Tracey. You're picking the mechanics that wow used and eq didn't to base you arguments on. It's fucking easy to win arguments when you cherry pick the topics to base it off of.
The simple fact is that EQ is a MMORPG and all of the wow clones are MMOHSG (massively multiplayer online hack and slash game). They are not the same and they are not comparable.
are you seriously advocating modern mmo AI? the same mobs you can solo in 30 seconds without fear of dying?
furthermore, what mmo has been "difficult"? what is difficulty? you people keep talking about it without defining it.
eq was superior to modern mmos in several ways. it had a stronger social foundation, appropriate pacing, and it felt like a fantasy world - you know, the reason people actually play mmos. if you don't get it then the synapses in your brain aren't firing correctly.
WoW fails because not only does your gear not last, but getting the gear doesn't really mean much. WoW has the worst of both worlds, in that your characters are essentially reset once every two years,andthere's nothing meaningful you can do in those two years. It's lose-lose scenario.
That said, I don't think having a truly permanent game with no form of gear resets/shortcuts is something that could ever work again - even at the niche game level. You need to continually attract players to your game in order for it to survive. Telling people that they need to go through 3 years worth of progression in order to be caught up to the people who started on day 1 is just a complete non-starter. That sort of game would be lucky to attract a consistent10-20kplayers in this day and age, a number that's way below the levels even a niche game needs to be successful.